Alberg 37 or Westsail 32 - Apples and Oranges ?

[NormanMartin]

PHRF New England has the Alberg 37 at 162, the WS at 222. Sixty seconds a mile is a significant difference. The WS had better be comfy because you'll be out there a while.

Our Aphrodite 101 has waterline length that is 26.25 ft and a PHRF number of 135. We have a hard time making 6 knots average unless the breeze is up Caribbean style. If one is sailing in regularly strong winds, the WS will be fast enough.

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Numbers aside: which one makes your heart go "pitter pat?"

Boats aside: where are you going and when?

[Jon Neely]

They both make my heart go " pitter pat" both in different ways, Half of me loves the lines of the alberg because it resembles the mason 44 i grew up on and is still owned by the family and sailed today in the bay.
on the other side I am a big fan of cutter and more traditional lines with the WS, but now that I learned that with the bowsprit is around 40ft overall. These boats are so close in what I like in boats its hard for me to figure out which one i really want, I am going to the bay area to look at the alberg 37 more closely, and will try to look at the ws also, it is with a private owner so I may or may not be able to make a meet in such short notice.

We are planning on doing a two year circumnavigation while making it a television show about tropical sailing, diving, food and sights:
v2 on Vimeo
cheers
Jon

[Pblais]

After owning a heavy boat twice has me convinced. Go heavy! They sit on the hook better and that is where you want to be. In a hurry? Fly airplanes and just get there and sit on a heavy boat. Heavy boats can haul lots "O'Stuff". Being in a hurry in a sail boat is so beyond imagination in the 21st century. Being not is a hurry adds up better. We had a CSY 33 and that boat sat at anchor - so nice! We now have a bigger cockpit and sail a little faster. We are heavier too. Waterline can't be denied. If you need to go short, then go with all the crap you need with you.

[roverhi]

If you are going to SF to look at boats, this boat is in Alameda and has had just about everything done to make it a true world cruiser. It's been a liveaboard/cruiser that they have thoughtfully prepared to go north or south. Worth checking out even if it is a bit pricey. Westsail 32 - Cruise Ready

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by roverhi

We did 178-185 mile days on three different W32's Averaged 150nmpd for 6 days on one passage. Our average over 10,000 miles plus was 118nmpd without resorting to the engine. Had 500 hours on the engine after 10 years and much of that was battery charging at anchor. Days runs ranged the gammut from an 18nm day in the dodlrums to 178 mile day in the trades to Hawaii. The W32 will sail in light air but with all that wetted surface they won't beat a fin keel boat. They will still sail however. From a close to a broad reach with more than 10knots of wind, we didn't find a boat a boat that could beat us and put one hot **** IOR one tonner over the horizon so fast he had to break out a spinnaker to keep us in sight.

Peter,
you've changed your name but your story is still the same.. And I still stick to what I said a couple years ago.. your full of it.. a full displacement hull of design as the W 32 will not do that type of speeds.. you've been hanging out at the Yacht Club Bar to long and your stories are a little streched..

[roverhi]

Walker Logs don't lie. The daily runs on our boat were backed up by a B&G log. These were through the water 24 hour days runs, no current adding to the total, or subtracting either. We actually did more than 200 miles, over the bottom, noon to noon by the sextant on a delivery from SF to Newport Beach. If you want a copy of my log book could probably figure out how to scan it.

But then, probably couldn't couldn't change the preconcieved notions of a Bendytoy sailor. Hell, you probably eat fois gras and claim to like geese.

[cburger]

Westsail Racers:

David King raced his W32 Saraband to win the 1988 Pacific Cup Winner, sailing from San Francisco Bay to Kaneohe Bay, Oahu. A couple of years later he came in lst in Class and 3rd overall.

Carter Cordner with his W32 Kemancha, #809, took First Overall in the 1995 Marion-Bermuda Cruising Yacht race, edging out two -time winner Wildflower, a Bristol 40. Kemancha was the smallest boat entered in the fleet of 77 yachts, which ranged up to 54 feet.

Jim Barnum with his W32 Panacea won lst Place in the Chili Pepper Division of the Baja Ha-Ha race from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico (800 plus miles). She was the smallest boat of the entire fleet of 36 boats.

James Wiley with his W32 Ave Del Mar placed first overall on best corrected time of 08:17:41 out of 19 boats that finished the Key West 2005 Rendezvous/race from Clearwater/Boca Grande/Naples Florida.

[malbert73]

I am with Roverhi. In trade wind or reaching conditions, most well-found boats, my own included, can easily cruise at 6.5-7 knots. Multiply by 24 and you get 150-170 nm. Now AVERAGING that would take ideal conditions, but sporadically, these are attainable, which is what he claimed.

More importantly, I am amused when everyone gets their shorts in a knot (pardon the pun) about speed and windward performance. Yes, in flat water and calm seas modern underbodies point better. Add in real seas and winds and most boats have to crack off anyway so the pointing differences are less pronounced. Yes you are marginally better in a modern underbody boat but when you are passage making you really avoid bashing to windward unless you hate yourself.

However, passagemaking is only a fraction of what sailors do. It is funny to see folks arguing the virtues of what is at most a 10-15% difference in speed between very slow craft to begin with (Ask a non sailor if they think it matters if YOUR boat averages 7-8 mph while someone else averages 6-7mph). If you hate sailing so much you absolutely need to get there 1 day quicker on a 10 day passage, then probably you shouldn't be sailing anyway- fly there instead.

Obviously all being equal, we'd all love to be able to afford a Gunboat or a 70 foot Hinckley and make quick passages with everything we want. But when buying a boat on a budget for passage making, as the originator of the post mentioned, speed is probably lower on the list. Comfort should be much higher.

What would you rather spend 3 months driving cross country in, a Ferrari or a Winnebago? This would answer your question about type of boat.

That said, I think Alberg 37s are pretty sweet boats, and will put a smile on your face in daysailing and passagemaking....

[cburger]

Good Post Malbert

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by malbert73

....
However, passagemaking is only a fraction of what sailors do. It is funny to see folks arguing the virtues of what is at most a 10-15% difference in speed between very slow craft to begin with (Ask a non sailor if they think it matters if YOUR boat averages 7-8 mph while someone else averages 6-7mph). If you hate sailing so much you absolutely need to get there 1 day quicker on a 10 day passage, then probably you shouldn't be sailing anyway- fly there instead.
...

The argument for a better performing boat is not the average speed in tradewinds conditions. Most, if not all, boats do OK in these conditions. The better performing boat will be able to sail more often and the sailing will be much easier in light conditions. This means you are actually sailing, as opposed to resorting to those large diesel tanks that fit into the heavy cruiser.

Paul L

[Butler]

Though my experience is quite limited as far as blue-water cruising goes it makes sense to me , especially if one is hauling gear to make a fim or video on a long distance cruise that stowage and comfort would be king. The other consideratiom wouild be access to a relatively stable platform which may be handy sometimes... so get a cat! no, no just kidding (about impossible to find in the price range under consideration here).
Also I agree that getting the most out of a heavy displacement boat in light winds reguire a large wardrobe and the ability to make the most of it.
I have the sails for my 10 ton Dreadnought 32/38loa (Carl's #s put her in the same performance bracket as the Westsail) and it will be fun to play with them this summer before the Santa Barbara/King Harbor Race. With a rated hull speed of 7.11 a phrf handicap of 222, a huge drifter and a cruising spin up forward I might surprise some folks if I can make it over the start line w/o crashing into somebody... but then, that might help my standing since the other boat would be in match-sticks. An expanded definition for
" barging".

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by cburger

Westsail Racers:

David King raced his W32 Saraband to win the 1988 Pacific Cup Winner, sailing from San Francisco Bay to Kaneohe Bay, Oahu. A couple of years later he came in lst in Class and 3rd overall.

Carter Cordner with his W32 Kemancha, #809, took First Overall in the 1995 Marion-Bermuda Cruising Yacht race, edging out two -time winner Wildflower, a Bristol 40. Kemancha was the smallest boat entered in the fleet of 77 yachts, which ranged up to 54 feet.

Jim Barnum with his W32 Panacea won lst Place in the Chili Pepper Division of the Baja Ha-Ha race from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico (800 plus miles). She was the smallest boat of the entire fleet of 36 boats.

James Wiley with his W32 Ave Del Mar placed first overall on best corrected time of 08:17:41 out of 19 boats that finished the Key West 2005 Rendezvous/race from Clearwater/Boca Grande/Naples Florida.

not going to dig into all the info you provided but by your remarks I would think you would have done your homework..
And for part of your homework, I give you an "F" on the Baja Ha Ha event.. First off its not a race but an 800 mile party on water, with stops along the way for mulitpul days, its geared to be a two week event and being first only means you got up earlier in the morning and left before anyone else.. And if I was sailing a full displacement boat with a waterline of around 27 feet, that exactlly what I would do to stay with the rest of the fleet..
The boat is rated by YRA with a 222 .. and fast it is, for a 22 foot boat and thats exactly what a Santana 22 is rated..
Down wind in trade winds, yes, it will probably kick butt, anything given enough power, will excell,
A heavy displacement boat as the W32, is probably one of the most unsafe boats to sail.. being its a heavyweight, its rigging is subjected to higher wind loads, which means heaver rigging, which increases boat weight..
Everything on the boat is built heavy and not to keep you safe, not becuse of but inspite of, but its built that way to hold the boat together, the heaver the boat, the heaver the components have to be to stant up to the stress..
When a wave hits you from the side or from the rear, the weight of the boat will NOT rise to overcome the energy but instead take the hard pounding of the wave, which means heaver equeptment and the whole cycle repeates its self.
A slower boat in ALL conditions, is subjected to more abuse the longer it stays in the conditions that create that abuse. The slower the boat in a crossing, not only means more abuse but for a longer period of time in that crossing, means more water to carry, more food to store, and maybe more fuel which means more weight, which means heaver rigging and the cycle never ends..
A full keel full displacement boat as the W32 has seen its time and the time has passed,
And speed throu the water is not to get you there faster, getting you there faster is just a by-product. Increased speed gives a more comfortable ride and ease of motion, the faster you move forward the less you move side to side, its a fact..

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by roverhi

But then, probably couldn't couldn't change the preconcieved notions of a Bendytoy sailor. Hell, you probably eat fois gras and claim to like geese.

Befor you Run your mouth "Peter O"
The BendyToy I sail and cruise with is a First Series, Built in the early 80s to compete in the Admrial's Cup.. A series of Hard Ass Open Ocean Races.. Its a Thoroughbred with a Legend...
And the rating, YRA says 84....Mine is a little faster with a full suite of Carbon/kevlar Laundry....
Just bad mouthing a FIRST 42 shows your ignorence..
And I do Like Geese......

[cburger]

[QUOTE=Randyonr3;429681]A heavy displacement boat as the W32, is probably one of the most unsafe boats to sail.. being its a heavyweight, its rigging is subjected to higher wind loads, which means heaver rigging, which increases boat weight.. Everything on the boat is built heavy and not to keep you safe, not becuse of but inspite of, but its built that way to hold the boat together, the heaver the boat, the heaver the components have to be to stant up to the stress..

I won't justify this with a remark: SATORI and the Perfect Storm

[malbert73]

Once again these posts really show only ONE thing to be true. People care deeply about their boats and will do anything to justify their boat buying decisions.

A First 42 is a nice boat which clearly is capable of being sailed and raced offshore. It will undoubtedly sail faster on average than the boats in question as it is lighter weight. However, so would a Volvo ocean racer, but doesn't mean that would be an ideal cruiser.

As an avid racer, I am always amused by the reference to PHRF numbers. They are RACING numbers, designed to match boats sailing around buoys. These always take into account windward legs. In real world cruising a 60 second per mile difference in PHRF rating will be much less, unless you are unlucky enough to be tacking upwind to your destination. Even then, in open water conditions, the differences are attenuated because of seas- pinching is always slow in these conditions so everyone cracks off.

Even for the sake of argument agree that a 60 second per mile difference exists between boats of the same length. So in a 24 hour period the slower boat is 1.5 hours behind. Big F%^&ing deal. Again, all else being equal we'd all like the comfortable, solid, well-tracking and fast boat. Most of us cannot afford Morris yachts though, so we make tradeoffs.

Randyonr3 is fiercely supportive of his boat. For him, the speed difference is worth the possible comfort differences and cost differences involved in sailing an ocean racer.

I have raced many boats that are super fast and high tech, including E scows, 505s, Moths, Lasers, and even Beneteau Firsts. Lots of fun to race. I happen to prefer a classic to cruise on, although I race it successfully as well on the side. I happen to really enjoy the feel of the boat, and always have enjoyed the feel and comfort of sailing classic boats. Some folks prefer a different sailing sensation and I respect that as well.

However, to suggest a Westsail is unsafe is really a stretch, but I am sure was retaliating for the beneteau-bashing posts.

In the grand scheme of things, all of the boats mentioned in these posts will get people where they want to go, in relative comfort (compared to a powerboat) and in about the same relative slowness. Things really aren't as polarized as some would suggest. None are as uncomfortable as a barrel, or comfortable as a couch in a living room. None are as slow as an anchor, nor as fast as a airplane. relativity and perspective, folks.....