45-50 ft. Bluewater with a bright interior?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

I did when I brought up keel design, rudder design and rigging, and interior layout of the sailboat.

The interior layout alone of most productions sailboats would rule them unsutibale for water sailing">blue water sailing.



One example.

I can say with certainty (without looking at the numbers) that spade rudders have a higher failure rate than skeg rudders, usually you will have to hit a UFO (unidentified floating object) before the weakness of spader rudders becomes apparent and or a serious issue.

I know of two recent incidents, one Sweden Yachts that sunk after having hit an object, and another sailboat that lost it's spade rudder whereby the family had to abandoned it. This is of admittedly only TWO sailboats, point thou is that both had spade rudders. Had they had skeg rudders they would have been fine....and yes, skeg rudders are suitable for blue water sailing, spade rudders not so much. It is primarily about safety.

Why only two recent examples then? Because most sailboats don't hit objects in the water, but when they do the result can be catastrophic.



Cats are animals that tend to dislike water, if you meant catamarans they are not blue water, correct. This also holds true for most production sailboats today which I've also pointed out, but again, it doesn't mean they do not cross oceans. As we all know many of them do.

Let's take a car analogy.
You could drive a Grand Prix car (also known as Formula 1) on public roads from point A to point B just fine, but that doesn't mean they are suitable to be driven on public roads. You could have hundreds of them driving around, as many you like, still wouldn't make them any more suitable for driving around on public roads.

Wow, there's the end of that debate "cats aren't bluewater" don't tell all the skippers that are sailing them round the world.

I knew a guy who had to abandon his 46 foot Malo in the Indian ocean due to his skeg held rudder failing, another guy cracked the skeg at the hull and was taking on water badly, therefore my take should be "all skeg rudders are unseaworthy?"

How many spade rudders do you think are sailing around the world? What percentage do you think fail catastrophically?

The world is changing.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"People say the same stuff over and over yet back their opinions with nothing."

There are in fact some statutory standards for "offshore" boats. The French and the Kiwis both have them, among others. And Beneteau happily makes many models certified as offshore capable, with deck stepped masts, which I believe the investigations after the Fastnet debacle concluded are simply not suitable for that purpose?

But there are no regulations or other codes defining what a "bluewater" boat is. That term is, always, A MATTER OF OPINION. So when people give you their unsubstantiated OPINIONS on that terribly subjective definition....they don't need to substantiate an opinion of an arbitrary term. That's your hang-up.

Now, if you got the ORC or USSA or the British Royal whatever to actually waste their time defining what a "bluewater" boat was, then you could have a subjective standard to compare things to. Perhaps.

Me? I say if you can pitchpole *and* capsize a boat, and nothing except the bedding is disturbed or damaged in the process, that's a bluewater boat. Because like the QE2, with brdige deck windows eighty feet above the waterline, any bluewater boat must be capable of taking the occasional rogue wave with no loss of function. (Which is gonna put some interesting requirements on the rigging.)''

Of course that immediately lets out balsa and reed rafts....But KonTiki did quite all right in the blue water, it was only the reefs that got her.

There's opinions and then there's make believe, no need to distinguish fact from fiction? You can say any old thing with out any need to substantiate "your opinion". How about the world is flat? No need to question this statement, no need to ask for proof and if I do question it then I have a hang up? Faith, what a wonderful thing.

What's the point of debate if someone can make any old **** up and not be called on it? Here's the thing, if my opinion is based on faulty lodgic, bad information or outdated facts, I would like that opinion to be proven wrong , I'm happy to learn.

This is a public forum, people come here to discuss and learn, if false information isn't challenged and asked to be verified then it's an educational failure that is doing a disservice.

If you are going to make a claim in public such as "catamarans aren't blue water boats" then you should be prepared to defend that opinion, people have a right to question and challenge such views.

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by daletourner

Wow, there's the end of that debate "cats aren't bluewater" don't tell all the skippers that are sailing them round the world.

Correct, catamarans aren't blue water, the same holds true for many production sailboats today, which escaped you since me telling you that catamarans aren't blue water completely triggered you.

That fact doesn't mean that catamarans and less suitable sailboats aren't crossing oceans, we have established that they do.

Originally Posted by daletourner

I knew a guy who had to abandon his 46 foot Malo in the Indian ocean due to his skeg held rudder failing, another guy cracked the skeg at the hull and was taking on water badly, therefore my take should be "all skeg rudders are unseaworthy?"

But of course you do.

The failure rate are higher on spade rudders than on skeg rudders, skeg rudders are more seaworthy, and safer.

By the way, could you get me in touch with those two sailors? I’m interested in finding out more.

Originally Posted by daletourner

How many spade rudders do you think are sailing around the world? What percentage do you think fail catastrophically?

How many of them hit any floating objects?

Let’s start there.

After all, it's usually when you hit something with a spade rudder that the vulnerability of the design will manifest. Even more vulnerable if you have two of them.

[daletournier]

In case you missed my intent, I don't believe skeg rudders are unseaworthy. My point is all sorts of boats have issues, some serious some not.

You basically called me liar, that's ok.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=128554

For the record from what I know Malo's a very good boats, I know Michael seemed to be a very competent guy and his boat looked immaculate.

In the same passage a beneteau 423 with a spade rudder made it safely without incident to south Africa in fact completed a circumnavigation, husband and wife. Does this mean the Beneteau is a better boat? Of course not. My point is all types of boats have issues and your not big statements regarding cats and production boats having more is unsubstantiated, particularly when you take into account the sheer numbers of them out there.

I won't continue, you are certain you are correct and that's fine, personally I believe the label "Blue water" is a very dated term full of Bias to what some need to believe, times change. Your entitled your opinion as I'm entitled to believe you are wrong. Peace.

[jlcnuke]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"People say the same stuff over and over yet back their opinions with nothing."

There are in fact some statutory standards for "offshore" boats. The French and the Kiwis both have them, among others. And Beneteau happily makes many models certified as offshore capable, with deck stepped masts, which I believe the investigations after the Fastnet debacle concluded are simply not suitable for that purpose?

But there are no regulations or other codes defining what a "bluewater" boat is. That term is, always, A MATTER OF OPINION. So when people give you their unsubstantiated OPINIONS on that terribly subjective definition....they don't need to substantiate an opinion of an arbitrary term. That's your hang-up.

Now, if you got the ORC or USSA or the British Royal whatever to actually waste their time defining what a "bluewater" boat was, then you could have a subjective standard to compare things to. Perhaps.

Me? I say if you can pitchpole *and* capsize a boat, and nothing except the bedding is disturbed or damaged in the process, that's a bluewater boat. Because like the QE2, with brdige deck windows eighty feet above the waterline, any bluewater boat must be capable of taking the occasional rogue wave with no loss of function. (Which is gonna put some interesting requirements on the rigging.)''

Of course that immediately lets out balsa and reed rafts....But KonTiki did quite all right in the blue water, it was only the reefs that got her.

I say if you can't sink the boat to 200+ ft and have it return to the surface intact and operating with everyone dry and happy it's not a true blue-water sailboat. Oh, and it should be able to power it's engines for years without refueling, just in case you need to. Of course, that immediately rules out every sailboat owned here, but hey, we can all make up our own definitions just because, so if you're on the boat I was on for years, you're in good shape. If you don't happen to be on a nuclear submarine, however, you better stick to coastal cruising in your boat because "I said" it wasn't blue water capable.

The fact is that any boat at sea can be sunk. A boat that can safely cross an ocean given a competent crew and a reasonable amount of prudence in planning and executing a voyage doing so, is pretty much all any person sailing like a "normal" person should need, whatever you want to call it.

A normal person isn't going to need to hoist storm sails, or encounter hurricanes in the open ocean, or have a whale land on their boat and break everything, or any of the other thousands of possibilities that "could" wreck most boats. Sure, there are examples of that kind of thing happening to someone, with some kind of boat, and if you want to sail a submarine around the world "just to be safe" then more power to you. I don't think we do any good to the sailing community by pretending that stuff built and designed 120 years ago is safer for some person to buy in Europe and sail to the Caribbean because a few bolt-on keels had issues in the past etc. Most designs of everything have had problems at one point or another.

[Singularity]

Bright interior thoughts:

CAL 2-46: Cabin doesn't get any brighter, instead portlights cause some armchair captains to question their safety. Excellent pedigree in design and build, many circumnavigations. 500 gallon combined fuel/water capacity. Older boat, so routinely ignored by modern shoppers.

Bluewater thoughts:

-To me a boat with a positive blue water reputation only means that the design and or systems of the boat, and/or maintenance of the same, is associated with increased risk relative to the boat with a less positive reputation. This ASSUMES that the reputation is earned and not the result of sea tales and internet forum echo chambers.

-It always must be considered that boats with a lower cost of entry will disproportionately fall into ownership where funds are tight and/or upkeep is more likely to fall behind. If/when maintenance falls off, risk of incident increases. Lower tier brands are more susceptible to this independent of, per se, the design of the boat.

-I don't doubt that across the entire lower tier boat fleet that things break down more often that upper tier boats for the same principles that applies to cars, watches, machinery, tools. To me this doesn't mean that the lower tier option completely unsuitable, rather it is typically associated with compromises that have to be calculated...same as in the analysis of the expensive boat.

[Linguini]

From a interior and quality side, check out Wauquiez Pilot Salon (42-58). The architecture gives you much more space on less feet without a DS look. Build quality is outstanding. The design, as a matter of taste, is not pretentious, it is clear, valuable, ageless and innovative. We´ve sailed the 42 and it was a pleassure. Not that fast (12 to.) but the complete package.....

[LaughingWarrior]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Perhaps a pilot house is in your future. But what is your budget again? This article might be helpful about boat statistics if you haven't seen it.
Understand your boat and her statistics

Thanks for this link Don. As a rank amateur, I was going to start a thread not about which boat to buy, but rather what characteristics to look for; this answers most of my questions nicely.

[rostyvyg]

Check Island Packets. Any model of a 3 digit series over 40' LOA (420, 440, 460, 465, 485) will take you to the end of the world and back. They are modern full keel boats of great design, meticulous contraction, to[p notch materials very sea-kindly and seaworthy. No keel bolts to worry about. Enormous sizes of diesel and water tanks. Overabundant stowage. Plenty of light inside. And they are quite fast despite popular belief. The factory is back up and ruining after dipping into tough times a few years ago. Excellent support as it relates to older models. Great community of owners. Check them out, you won't regret it.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Suijin

In general the reason most classic “blue water” boats are lacking natural light is that big glazing presents risks offshore. Take a big wave that stoves in a large window, or an errant shackle that shatters it and you have a problem.

Modern materials tech has changed that somewhat but it’s still a theoretical concern.

And another thing....

Those nice big windows? That look so nice at the boat show in Seattle? When you are in the tropics, you'll have them covered over 99.5% of the time. In my experience, at latitudes below 28deg you'll spend a LOT more effort trying everything you can think of to keep the sun OUT of the boat.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by billknny

And another thing....

Those nice big windows? That look so nice at the boat show in Seattle? When you are in the tropics, you'll have them covered over 99.5% of the time. In my experience, at latitudes below 28deg you'll spend a LOT more effort trying everything you can think of to keep the sun OUT of the boat.

The Phifertex mesh that covers most cats and monos with large ports is pretty transparent when viewed from the inside while blocking over 70% of the UV. This covering, along with window tint, is more than adequate to keep the solar radiation out.

Matt

[DavidJH]

Originally Posted by rostyvyg

Check Island Packets. Any model of a 3 digit series over 40' LOA (420, 440, 460, 465, 485) will take you to the end of the world and back. They are modern full keel boats of great design, meticulous contraction, to[p notch materials very sea-kindly and seaworthy. No keel bolts to worry about. Enormous sizes of diesel and water tanks. Overabundant stowage. Plenty of light inside. And they are quite fast despite popular belief. The factory is back up and ruining after dipping into tough times a few years ago. Excellent support as it relates to older models. Great community of owners. Check them out, you won't regret it.

We just went to the Annapolis Boat show and I agree with you. Granted, I loved Island Packet before we went, but their build quality is very apparent. I only got on board their smallest as it was the only one present, but I may stop by their factory in November when I'm down there; They are in the process of building a 525 (previously called the 485). The STIX number of the 485 is also incredibly high. I believe its around a 65. Its hard to think of a safer monohull of that size.

[mglonnro]

Since I've become a big fan of light and air, I have to post this picture of a Hanse 508 interior. Don't know what the STIX rating is (it's a lot less!), but when looking for a way out of the cave, pictures like these have been quite inspirational to me

Also, I don't quite agree with the "learn to sail first, interior is secondary" thinking. Buying a sailboat is, I'd say, a bit removed from rational reality in the first place, so whatever "floats your boat" is valuable and precious (crazy and expensive).

[FutureStories]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

If its too dark you can always paint it white.

Our Liberty 458 is plenty bright down below and it has a dark teak interior. We've been in the Pacific North West for 2 years and winters are mostly overcast and grey.

It's aomething we were concerned about when buying. You will know immediately when going below.

I have two of these Liberty 458s listed and they’re incredibly light down below especially Gaia (the green one) because it was made for a basketball player so it has over 7’ headroom throughout. (All 458s are semi custom and built to order only 32 made built off the Peterson 44 hull design so 180nm days are not uncommon in these boats and they’re fully capable of blue water cruising)

Www.knot10.com

Additionally I was on a Wellington 57 last week that awed me. Beautiful not lots of room.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...owse%20listing

[DavidJH]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Since I've become a big fan of light and air, I have to post this picture of a Hanse 508 interior. Don't know what the STIX rating is (it's a lot less!), but when looking for a way out of the cave, pictures like these have been quite inspirational to me

Also, I don't quite agree with the "learn to sail first, interior is secondary" thinking. Buying a sailboat is, I'd say, a bit removed from rational reality in the first place, so whatever "floats your boat" is valuable and precious (crazy and expensive).

Yes, I think I was on this boat in Annapolis a few weeks ago! Beautiful, and very similar to Jeanneau's latest offerings. For me, it comes down to how safe and stable we want this boat. This style is definitely the brightest and most welcoming in a monohull's configuration. Island Packet still has these beat hands down as far as storage and sea worthiness. To an extent that it really matters? Well, I'm sure the internet could debate that all day.