ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI.

[Livia]

I am glad this conversation is happening. Nothing is black and white and to say that there is a rape culture in paradise, doesn't mean it is not also a tropical paradise filled with lovely people. We are having a great time in the South Pacific (and no harrassment, quite the opposite, in Vuda Point Marina here in Fiji) but it is also true that we have heard lots of stories, particularly from single woman, who were respectful and culturally sensitive, about harrassment. It is NOT just women who are wearing tank tops and short shorts.

...and there is a big difference between BLAME and ADVICE. I advise other women to dress culturally appropriately because it is smart for their safety but if they get raped the BLAME is on the idiot who watched donkey porn. The idea that islanders are unable to differentiate between donkey porn (and I'm not saying Ann said that) and someone walking in front of them or that if you have short shorts their culture makes them incapable of resisting attacking you is a patronizing. Cultures can be wrong. I feel free to BLAME them and hold them responsible.

With that said, it isn't my place as a visitor to change them. I would move on if I felt in danger. That is my ADVICE to myself.

[Polux]

ITALIAN TOURISTS VISITING ON A YACHT, ABUSED IN FIJI: I would not call visiting to being on a mooring for 5 months. That is more than visiting.

I agree that showing the genitals ostensibly is over the top in any civilized culture I know off but probably that was a over response (since it was not a lonely attitude, just the more extreme) to a general feeling: Those ladies seem not to be welcomed anymore on that place, at least by a part of the local community.

Is it an unfounded response or had those ladies even if inadvertently have some responsibility regarding that feeling? On some cultural communities Lesbianism (or homosexuality) are not well accepted. Did they had some public behavior that was considered inappropriate? I don't know but I know that I would avoid any culture or local where I would not fell at ease, culturally or otherwise and would try to respect the local costumes and culture.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Interesting how the locals "invade" a bit of Fiji. Maybe they didn't see "your" flag (Of Kansas? Lol)

[msponer]

Originally Posted by Livia

...
The idea that islanders are unable to differentiate between donkey porn (and I'm not saying Ann said that) and someone walking in front of them or that if you have short shorts their culture makes them incapable of resisting attacking you is a patronizing. Cultures can be wrong. I feel free to BLAME them and hold them responsible.
...

Thank you!

I feel exactly the same way but could not say it as well. I can't say it without being abrasive. I turn 40 in a few years and maybe that's the age when people start mumbling to themselves as they type into the Internet.

As we travel we should be aware of cultural differences. But it is patronizing to give an individual a free pass because they are from a rural island, with chiefs, uneducated, poor, overrun by an odd Christian sect a hundred years ago, don't watch enough TV or normal pornography, or whatever other things you want to make up.

I hate to make a straw man argument, but it's so dang compelling-- think about Pitcairn. Clearly, they have a long cultural history of raping children. Do those islanders also get a free pass, or can we judge them because they look more like us?

Rape is illegal in all of these places. I'm assuming indecent exposure is, too. That means their society, at least the part with guns, judges, and jails, agrees with the rest of the modern world. I also don't believe these individuals would do this in front of their parents. Maybe I am wrong, we skipped Fiji last time we were in the Pacific.

I truly believe they know better. And would act better if they knew someone would hold them to their own society's standards. But instead they see a traveller, who is outside of their community and more vulnerable, and prey on them. So I am completely happy to judge them for that, whether or not preying on the weak or those outside of their tribe is an integral part of their culture.

It's not up to us travelers to change them. But I think one of the worst things we can do is make excuses for them, to say they can't control their urges when they see a white woman's bare knees, or who are incapable of treating people outside of their community with dignity. That's just a modern and polite way to call them savages, and I don't agree with that.

Well, ok, that was pretty abrasive, incoherent, and filled with inelegant conversational tacks.

[NoTies]

All this judging yet nobody has heard the other side of what happened. Best you all stay home.

[sailorboy1]

I started skipping reading posts, but

Is it the local custom for men to expose themselves to women?

[msponer]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Is it the local custom for men to expose themselves to women?

My thoughts exactly -- NoTies believes there is another side to this story.

NoTies, please speculate, what could the other side of the story be? Is 'indecent exposure' a traditional Fijian greeting dance? When the men were yelling "Where is your husband?", were they just trying to make sure everyone was invited to the ceremony? Is 'flashing genitals' the way grown Fijian men comment on a woman's marital status or clothing?

NoTies, as an almost local, you have a unique insight and ability to educate us travelers. With your guidance we could become more culturally sophisticated-- perhaps you could show us how to hold our own traditional Fijian greeting dance? Or teach us how to appropriately respond to a perceived cultural slight with a genital flash? Imagine the surprise and delight of our hosts when we show them that we are capable of engaging them in this way!

Or is this how doofuses, the world over, act? Am I allowed to judge them for their actions as individuals? Or do they get a free pass to act like idiots because they are from a small island nation?

[NoTies]

You need to study geography, I don't live in Fiji. In any fair & just society the accused would have a chance to defend themselves of their actions but you lot are judging them without them having the ability to hear their say.
What I do know is that cruisers many times inadvertently offend the locals because of cultural ignorance. The flashing episode is likely a reaction to some cultural insensitivity as it is certainly not common practice.
In Polynesian culture the wakapohane is the worst insult that can be given but it doesn't involve genitals, rather the other side of the body.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Livia

....Cultures can be wrong. I feel free to BLAME them and hold them responsible.
.....

Cultures in an anthropological way cannot be wrong or right, they are what they are and represent the way a society interacts (between them and with nature).

Some aspects of a culture can seem wrong viewed by other cultures, meaning that on the other society things don't have the same meanings and values. If one does not want to mingle with a culture that has aspects he considers intolerably wrong the best thing he has to do is not to go there.

By this I do not mean that personally I would ethically approve many aspects of other particular cultures, but that those not make those aspects right or wrong on the holistic culture where they belong. Just my particular (culturally biased) view on the subject.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Polux

Cultures in an anthropological way cannot be wrong or right, they are what they are and represent the way a society interacts (between them and with nature).

Some aspects of a culture can seem wrong viewed by other cultures, meaning that on the other society things don't have the same meanings and values. If one does not want to mingle with a culture that has aspects he considers intolerably wrong the best thing he has to do is not to go there.

By this I do not mean that personally I would ethically approve many aspects of other particular cultures, but that those not make those aspects right or wrong on the holistic culture where they belong. Just my particular (culturally biased) view on the subject.

+1

I live in a country with hundreds of languages and a huge range of cultures. It is a big mistake to view another culture through your own cultural goggles and pass judgement on it. Cultures evolve to suit the environment they develop in. Right and wrong are not absolutes, they are just cultural norms.

[Livia]

I have had very different experiences walking around the countries we have visited in the South Pacific (so far) with my husband than I have had walking around by myself. I don't mean to make it a gender thing at all, but I will say that women-walking-as-part-of-couples, and men, really can't tell you accurately how it feels to women-walking-alone.

Fiji is a new country for us so I can't speak about Fiji. I agree that the manner of the OPs introduction of the topic made it difficult to not react negatively, but at least some of the information has been brought up by other sources (see the link I added). The break ins are worrisome to me.

Originally Posted by Polux

Cultures in an anthropological way cannot be wrong or right, they are what they are and represent the way a society interacts (between them and with nature).

We could get into an interesting academic discussion about moral relativism and culture but it would perhaps be beside the point of this thread so I will just agree to respectfully disagree with you. For me, a culture that says that it is OK to rape a woman for wearing short shorts is...wrong. As someone recently said to me, I feel post-overly-culturally-sensitive in my travel outlook.

And, like I said before, none of that means I am here to change anyone and if I don't like a place I move on. So far we're having a blast in Fiji.

[JPA Cate]

FWIW, rape is against the law in Fiji; and no rape was mentioned in the OP.

Some visiting women have been treated very rudely, and I think the youths know better.
We're talking about jeering and disrespect here, and filling a dinghy with water by cannon balling.

Now, why did this happen? I don't know. Perhaps some kind of local politics (marina vs. local chiefs, and cash sharing) is at the root of it, or that, plus the demon rum.

However, I do know from talking with locals that disrespect is a sore topic, and has been for years. I do know the yachties are immeasurably more wealthy than they; how can there not be some latent resentment? Yachties also tend to not follow the Fijian dress codes, too. Put it together with flaunting local custom (women to be covered shoulders through mid-calf), and I don't find the incident described surprising. Distasteful and scary for women with no male protector around, sure. But not a huge incident, either.

Without input from the young men, we'll never know all of it, and some of it may be "tabu", anyhow, so that a foreigner would be unlikely to find out.

Ann

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Chill out a second please. In no way do I condone the young men's behavior, but, having spent quite a bit of time in Fiji, I would add this. The local culture is extremely patriarchal, and control of the young men rests with the chiefs. Now, many cruisers do not understand the whole practice of sevusevu, the Fijian ritual for travelers between different chiefdoms, and do not practice it themselves. If those cruisers who stay at the facility in Savusavu, would do sevusevu--the ritual gift of kava (yanggona)-- in the villages, if the chiefs accept them, they will also look after them. Otherwise, they feel done ill by and are resentful of the cash the marina makes, so there is little effort to control the young men, who, of course have to consent to be controlled. AFAIK, offfering the sevusevu is the only way to get the protection of the chief, and without it, the village does nothing whatsoever to help a cruiser.





I feel quite certain these incidents are due to foreigners' expectations of a "civilized" European environment, and what amounts to culture clash.




Someone has paid money for a service, and expects respect, but without knowledge of the local dynamics.

If you do not conduct yourself as a similar age & gender person of the local culture, you are open for a lot of surprises. In both Fiji and Tonga, European females' dress standards are scandalous, and this has led to difficulties for the cruisers for zed. The local men feel the women are "asking for it".

The US exportation of pornography to the islands has also caused some feeling like this: a blonde woman was raped in French Polynesia some years back, and the young man said, if "they'll have sex with a donkey, why not me?" So this kind of thinking is out there, too. Paradise lost through interaction with the West.

Each island is a little different, but if you teach yourself to consider the local chiefs as equivalents to the little kingships of the dark ages, you'll see they will require respect. If you do a little research, you can find out what kind of consideration you need to have for their culture to smooth the way. The responsibility here is of the visitor. You're not in North America nor the European Community any more!

Ann

on edit: I do not mean, in any way to be bashing MY LADY, this comment is based on years of learning and observing. I do not feel the Italians intentionally aggravated the locals. It is just culture clash and lack of respect for the profound differences between their culture and the local one.

Would you, please, elaborate about "civilized" european.

I am extremely curious to understand these brackets and about what they are standing for.
Thank you.

[JPA Cate]

Claude-Marie,

If the brackets were for "yanggona", that is kava roots, wrapped like a bouquet, which is what is best offered at sevusevu, rather than paper packets of powdered kava.

What I mean about civilized Europeans is that they exported missionaries in the middle of the 19th century, who taught the Pacific cultures to be "modest". They brought their own standards, and I really don't think they realized the deaths that would follow from the autochthones accepting them. Now, Europeans and Americans are pretty comfortable with women topless and in small bikinis, but that's not the standards the missionaries taught, and the locals accepted, and still adhere to.

Further, I meant that "civilized Europeans" will go into a marina, pay the fees, and have expectations that may be unmet in South Pacific cultures.

Most of the South Pacific did not have money (although certain trade objects could serve for it, red pods in the Solomons come to mind as part of bride price; and Yap had their amazing stone money)--it was mainly barter. If you read what the Tongan chiefs thought of the white man's desire to save things--a dangerous concept for society, basically--you'll see how revolutionary the West's concepts of property, and behavior were in the Pacific.

There are undoubtedly some French authors on the subject of the Iles Marquises, circa 1840 or so, which will help; I've been limited to mainly English writers.

For me, the problem has been to interface what I have learned of what came before to what is happening now. Fiji is extremely complex, IMO, but these little places are sort of microcosms of understanding what has come before and what will come, but that's just me trying to figure out stuff.

Ann

[NoTies]

It is painfully clear in this thread who the people are who a/have researched and visited Pacific destinations,b/ those who have visited or are visiting and not researched beforehand, c/ those that haven't researched or visitied but want to know more and those d/who haven't researched, never visited and are determined to PRE-JUDGE. The second and last categories are not worthy of respect.