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21-01-2018, 17:17
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,511
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha
There is no such a thing as right of way when one of the boats is not a sailing boat.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino
¿Qué?
Putting the 'right of way' bit to one side - and leaving it there - I suggest you take a look at Rule 18.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60
And everyone should revisit rule 5 and 6 while there.
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...and some should just revist the COLREGS in general...maybe for the first time even! [emoji20]
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21-01-2018, 17:23
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#32
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 22,024
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFS Klopas
That's exactly what I said?
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Nope, it wasn’t.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
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21-01-2018, 17:29
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BVI
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,390
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino
¿Qué?
Putting the 'right of way' bit to one side - and leaving it there - I suggest you take a look at Rule 18.
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There is no "right of way" (a RRS concept) unless both boats are sailboats and both are racing.
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21-01-2018, 17:59
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Boat: Condor Trimaran 30 foot
Posts: 1,499
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Can you imagine the legal implications that are to follow. Bottom line is someone died. We see it happen all the time in offroad racing when a truck will come down awkward off of a bounce and go helter skelter. Nasty things happen near race courses.
Me thinks that with all that sail area up and going at max speed....it doesn't allow for much reaction time and maneuverability would be compromised. The side of the VOR yacht looks the USS Cole after her attack in Yemen. Ugly.
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21-01-2018, 18:27
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Boat: Looking for a new boat
Posts: 2,581
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha
There is no such a thing as right of way when one of the boats is not a sailing boat.
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???? Dude ???
__________________
__________________________________________
Unbusted67 or just Ben
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21-01-2018, 19:51
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#36
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,824
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha
There is no such a thing as right of way when one of the boats is not a sailing boat.
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No such thing as "right of way" under International Collision Regulations.
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
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21-01-2018, 22:47
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in the boat in Patagonia
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,551
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Moving right along....
This will be sorted under PRC jurisdiction.... glad I'm not in the frame.....
How many serious prangs with RTW boats in the last 2 years or so.... Vestas x 2 plus Greenings at Cape Town....
Competence levels on these boats appears to be on a par with the USN...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hq...-DDj1Hiuw=s750
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22-01-2018, 00:16
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#38
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,906
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30
Is there any info yet on which was burdened vessel in terms of right of way?
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Certainly -- neither of them was either burdened, nor had right of way. That's one thing we know for sure.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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22-01-2018, 00:19
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#39
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,906
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NevisDog
No, this is absolutely wrong.
No race is worth dying for. Going fishing for a living is always one of the most hazardous occupations but being killed by some supersonic yacht dodging through a 'fleet of poorly lit fishing boats' at warp speed - that's not on. That's not sailing. That's not sport. That's not seamanship.
I totally dissociate myself from that viewpoint. No excuses please.
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No race is worth dying OR KILLING for.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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22-01-2018, 00:37
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#40
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,906
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino
This will be sorted under PRC jurisdiction.... glad I'm not in the frame.....
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Amen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino
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Again, amen. I suppose the problem is very similar in both cases -- the main focus in both cases is not on seamanship.
I don't, personally, have any problem with races held on "public right of ways", whether at sea or on land. It's exciting, adding a different dimension to the sport compared to doing it in the sterilized environment of a race course. Ah, the old Mille Miglia and Carrera Panamerica . . . But racing on a "public right of way" means you can't sacrifice seamanship and proper collision avoidance -- this is one of the challenges of such a race, just like weather (we're not racing in an air-conditioned dome). Races in harbors around cans require the participants to follow the Rules and not impede shipping as required, and to give way to starboard/downwind non-racing boats as required -- that's part of the challenge. Nothing different here.
In my opinion, more attention simply needs to be paid to how these crews are doing collision avoidance. There should be remote monitoring by race officials of AIS data from the boats, and severe penalties for COLREGS violations, up to and including instant disqualification. For a race like the VOR, there should be a qualified committee evaluating COLREGS compliance including violation of safe speed in crowded waters. To require the crews to do collision avoidance properly will just add to the challenge -- appropriate and, if you ask me, fun.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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22-01-2018, 02:27
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in the boat in Patagonia
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,551
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha
There is no "right of way" (a RRS concept) unless both boats are sailboats and both are racing.
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Ah... understood ... 'pologies for any offence or confusion...
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22-01-2018, 02:36
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,511
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha
There is no "right of way" (a RRS concept) unless both boats are sailboats and both are racing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker
No such thing as "right of way" under International Collision Regulations.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino
Ah... understood ... 'pologies for any offence or confusion... 
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Yes, many commonly misuse the term "right of way", but it does not exist under the COLREGs.
So...lamorochas original comment about "right of way" read like another misuse of the term. Now that he's clarified the statement, I agree, no vessel had "right of way".
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22-01-2018, 03:33
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#43
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,906
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor
Yes, many commonly misuse the term "right of way", but it does not exist under the COLREGs.
So...lamorochas original comment about "right of way" read like another misuse of the term. Now that he's clarified the statement, I agree, no vessel had "right of way".
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LaMarocha explained it exactly correctly
And it's not a merely pedantic comment. Someone asked who had the right of way, and the correct answer, as given by LaMarocha and other is that for sure no one had the right of way. The question itself implies that someone was at fault and someone was innocent, as may be the case in a road accident, but that is not the case here. To continue the thought and say what I think many of us are thinking -- no matter how badly lit the fishing boat was, or what weird or incorrect maneuver the fishing boat may have made, the racers should not have run it down.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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22-01-2018, 03:58
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,511
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
LaMarocha explained it exactly correctly
And it's not a merely pedantic comment. Someone asked who had the right of way, and the correct answer, as given by LaMarocha and other is that for sure no one had the right of way. The question itself implies that someone was at fault and someone was innocent, as may be the case in a road accident, but that is not the case here. To continue the thought and say what I think many of us are thinking -- no matter how badly lit the fishing boat was, or what weird or incorrect maneuver the fishing boat may have made, the racers should not have run it down.
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I suspect, like many accidents, there will be some accountability shared among multiple parties.
Given that many poorly lit fishing boats are a known problem in the area, I think that accountability should extend up to the race organizers. With high speed sailing vessels converging on the area at night, a saftey escort/zone would have been a very good idea.
Even if the bow watch saw the poorly lit vessel, there may have been very little time to react at their likely speeds.
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22-01-2018, 04:00
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,511
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Re: VOR boat in Fatal Collision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor
...and some should just revist the COLREGS in general...maybe for the first time even! [emoji20]
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And, now that we've cleared that up, I retract my comment. Sorry.
[emoji253]
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