The death of Active Captain

[mjscottinnc]

There is a fairly clear path that most 'community based' products take as they grow from incubation to economic importance. As a new and young product that solves a problem that was previously unserviced the community members willingly support and contribute. As it become more and more unruly (larger and more difficult to manage) the project's economic importance is recognized and the profit making potential is purchased. At this point one of two paths is typically taken, fee for service or fee for referral (direct referral or advertising). When a previously free service is then charged for with no additional value added, fee for service typically fails. Fee for referral has been the much more successful path of the few that have stood the test of time. Take a look at Angie's List, or some of the other contact or referral lists data-based services. In essence Active Captain tried to be a mixture of Cruiser's List, Navigation List, and Social Contact Platform. It will be interesting to see what paths Garmin takes it in it's search for an income stream.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Jeff - RED HEAD

That just sounds like you’re using an Android version. The iOS version is rock solid. I never see crashes and have 2+ devices always running it at the helm. I have 5 iPads and 2 Android tablets so my feelings about it all aren’t based on loving one camp more than another; they’re based on extensive experience. I’ve developed for both platforms too.

Yep, Android version, two different (Samsung) tablets... and during one of the exchanges with their tech support, they mentioned having troubles with some Android platforms. Couldn't tell if they meant Android in general, or just certain tablet brands/models. Hasn't been insurmountable.

-Chris

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Jeff - RED HEAD

> why would a failing product like PolarNavy opt to no longer provide AC?

He wasn't making enough money and didn't want to do any additional development to support the new ActiveCaptain. PolarView and the website are gone on 12/31/2019. The product is gone. It was a part time thing for him - he had/has a lucrative real job.


> And if Garmin never charged for the license, what was their

> financial incentive for purchasing AC from you?
There are many. When a company views themselves as the market leader, they do things that are beneficial to the market. I would imagine they also like their competitors having some part of Garmin in their products. I also suspect that Garmin didn't want another company owning ActiveCaptain. Multiple large companies were interested.


> Also, any idea why Garmin stopped supporting BlueChart Mobile?
They needed an app with an expandable architecture that could run on both iOS and Android. Their new app is the obvious replacement. I'd imagine that they didn't want to support both.


> All of these apps seem to be a bit of a moving target, except for
> Navionics I suppose since Garmin now owns them.
If you cruise along the US ICW, you're out of your mind to not use Aqua Map with their Master option. For the Bahamas, they also offer Explorer Charts which is the only legitimate chart option but not digitally available everywhere. There is nothing else close to the Aqua Map app. Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in Aqua Map in any way although I've helped with feature suggestions, testing, and even contributed some code for their use. I also helped the Explorer license happen. I admit the Aqua Map guys sent me a case of wine last Christmas for my help but I won't take any money, stock, or anything financial. The wine, from their village in Italy, was exceptional.

Thanks for the responses Jeff. There's always more lurking "behind the scenes" with tech companies' decisionmaking than is readily apparent to the end user.

Thanks also to you and ranger42c for the endorsement of AquaMaps. I've been a bit gun-shy about committing to it for reasons previously discussed, but between offering AC, WG, and Explorer charts I've had it at the top of my list. Fwiw, I've also read positive reviews of iSailor, although their new fee structure didn't sit well with many after they were bought out. I hope the same doesn't happen with AquaMaps, at least for awhile. It's a rapidly changing industry and nothing seems to stay constant indefinitely. Thank goodness, right?

[Jeff - RED HEAD]

Originally Posted by Exile

It's a rapidly changing industry and nothing seems to stay constant indefinitely. Thank goodness, right?

Yeah, that's true. The good thing about today's products is that they are very inexpensive. Windows applications used to cost hundreds (even thousands) of dollars. These mobile apps are now pretty cheap by comparison. For that reason, I use a few - both to be backups on each other as well as keeping familiar in case a favorite one goes away or changes.


The ones I use right now for real are:


Aqua Map - my main app today. I do all route planning with it and then copy the routes everywhere else. The anchor alarm is killer. The ability to use my built-in NMEA instruments is wonderful. And I use it as my main navigation assistant on the ICW. I also used their advanced features to connect their anchor alarm to a series of Raspberry Pi's I have onboard for specialty use (I built a custom "any water" alarm with 12 sensors throughout the bilge). If the Aqua Map anchor alarm goes off, the Raspberry Pi's announce the alarm by voice through speakers in multiple places. Someday I'll publish all the software to make that work.



Navionics - it's a good backup although I don't trust many of their sonar charts mode (I know too much of it to be wrong). It's pretty stable. I think their tide/current handling is the best. I like that you can edit ActiveCaptain data within the app without going to the website.



TZ iBoat - I mainly use this because I have a backup Furuno DRS4W radar and iBoat allows the radar image to be overlaid on charts. It's a pretty good product although it needs a few more features. It currently has an iOS bug for importing GPX routes.


ActiveCaptain - I only use this to copy routes from GPX files to the one Garmin chartplotter onboard. I never use it for live navigation. Sadly, the product manager of the product (also the product manager of BlueChart Mobile) was a friend who had gone cruising in our boat with us to learn about what it's like. He passed away last year and I like having his products onboard.



BlueChart Mobile - yeah, I still use it on an older iPad that I refuse to upgrade. I mostly use it as a zoomed out view of the route we're on although it could take over in an instant if needed. I think the UI of BCM is the best for any of these navigation apps. Why some bright developer doesn't copy it is shocking.



iNavX - I bought this the first week it was released back over a decade ago. I actually never use it but I keep it to remind me how bad a product can be. I literally hate the app. It never was good and it hasn't improved.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Exile

Fwiw, I've also read positive reviews of iSailor, although their new fee structure didn't sit well with many after they were bought out.

We tried iSailor. Don't find it a particularly intuitive interface (though you might). The charts seem OK, but of course we haven't inspected closely for differences (if any) between NOAA and other chartmaker's offerings. No Waterway Guide or AC markers, no Explorer Charts, and I don't remember whether it has an anchor alarm or not.

-Chris

[Exile]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

We tried iSailor. Don't find it a particularly intuitive interface (though you might). The charts seem OK, but of course we haven't inspected closely for differences (if any) between NOAA and other chartmaker's offerings. No Waterway Guide or AC markers, no Explorer Charts, and I don't remember whether it has an anchor alarm or not.

-Chris

Thanks Chris -- you just saved me a bunch of time.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Where the ROI for anyone but you?

How about all the value you get from the functionality? That's what I get out of ActiveCaptain, even when it's a review I wrote myself some years ago. *grin* Same with Yelp. The more you give, the more others get, the more they give as a result, the more you get. It is a leap of faith.

I still contribute to ActiveCaptain although not with the fervor I once did. It's all gotten harder - some of that I lay at the feet of Garmin, some is possibly GDPR.

Originally Posted by Exile

The problem arose when Garmin pulled support for apps that required the purchase of charting like Bluechart, and stopped providing AC to other paid apps like PolarNavy, SEaiq, etc.

Remember that GDPR was kicking in at the same time as the sale and handover to Garmin. The interface between third party products and ActiveCaptain HAD to change. Not everyone was prepared to make the investment of time and energy. Garmin could have moved faster in solidifying the new interface but the need for change was not their fault.

[Exile]

Nice getting this insight from someone who has actually helped create some of these products. As I'm sure you know, whether or not a particular app is successful or not is often dependent on highly subjective factors. I for one really liked the UI on PolarNavy, but don't care much for OpenCPN (but have used it and keep it available as backup). Apparently I'm in the minority in both instances.

Originally Posted by Jeff - RED HEAD

Yeah, that's true. The good thing about today's products is that they are very inexpensive. Windows applications used to cost hundreds (even thousands) of dollars. These mobile apps are now pretty cheap by comparison. For that reason, I use a few - both to be backups on each other as well as keeping familiar in case a favorite one goes away or changes.

Good idea. And yes, my Windows based Coastal Explorer program (which I really like) cost close to $400. The charting for the US is direct from NOAA and free, but much beyond that the charting must be purchased.

The ones I use right now for real are:

Aqua Map - my main app today. I do all route planning with it and then copy the routes everywhere else. The anchor alarm is killer. The ability to use my built-in NMEA instruments is wonderful. And I use it as my main navigation assistant on the ICW. I also used their advanced features to connect their anchor alarm to a series of Raspberry Pi's I have onboard for specialty use (I built a custom "any water" alarm with 12 sensors throughout the bilge). If the Aqua Map anchor alarm goes off, the Raspberry Pi's announce the alarm by voice through speakers in multiple places. Someday I'll publish all the software to make that work.

Given the number & length of CF threads on bilge pumps, etc. (with no ideal solutions), I'd say a sophisticated but user friendly multi-tiered bilge alarm could be quite successful.

Navionics - it's a good backup although I don't trust many of their sonar charts mode (I know too much of it to be wrong). It's pretty stable. I think their tide/current handling is the best. I like that you can edit ActiveCaptain data within the app without going to the website.

Seems to almost be the default for a lot of people. Also primary on some brand name chartplotters other than Garmin.

TZ iBoat - I mainly use this because I have a backup Furuno DRS4W radar and iBoat allows the radar image to be overlaid on charts. It's a pretty good product although it needs a few more features. It currently has an iOS bug for importing GPX routes.

To your knowledge is TZ the only app that allows radar overlay from the DRS4W? Btw, how do you like the DRS4W? I'm reading mixed reviews, and also wondering why nobody else is trying to compete with it directly (afaik). Radar overlay seems to be one of the more difficult items to get onto a PC or device, although I know some who have managed to do it.

ActiveCaptain - I only use this to copy routes from GPX files to the one Garmin chartplotter onboard. I never use it for live navigation. Sadly, the product manager of the product (also the product manager of BlueChart Mobile) was a friend who had gone cruising in our boat with us to learn about what it's like. He passed away last year and I like having his products onboard.

Sorry about the loss of your friend. I could be wrong but get the impression that Garmin may be the most proprietary of the major brands, and also the quickest to stop supporting their older products. I've used them a long time in various applications and still think a lot of their ruggedization (mine won't die). But I've started too cross them off the list when it comes time for a refit because of their rather quick "legacy" timeframe.

BlueChart Mobile - yeah, I still use it on an older iPad that I refuse to upgrade. I mostly use it as a zoomed out view of the route we're on although it could take over in an instant if needed. I think the UI of BCM is the best for any of these navigation apps. Why some bright developer doesn't copy it is shocking.

Ha! Ditto for me re: BCM, including an ancient iPad2 which isn't good for anything else but BCM. Go figure.

iNavX - I bought this the first week it was released back over a decade ago. I actually never use it but I keep it to remind me how bad a product can be. I literally hate the app. It never was good and it hasn't improved.

Agreed, with the caveat that I'm rather partial towards raster charts. But very clunky interface, and its Mac counterpart MacENC is long gone.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

How about all the value you get from the functionality? That's what I get out of ActiveCaptain, even when it's a review I wrote myself some years ago. *grin* Same with Yelp. The more you give, the more others get, the more they give as a result, the more you get. It is a leap of faith.

I still contribute to ActiveCaptain although not with the fervor I once did. It's all gotten harder - some of that I lay at the feet of Garmin, some is possibly GDPR.



Remember that GDPR was kicking in at the same time as the sale and handover to Garmin. The interface between third party products and ActiveCaptain HAD to change. Not everyone was prepared to make the investment of time and energy. Garmin could have moved faster in solidifying the new interface but the need for change was not their fault.

BY GDPR you mean the new EU requirements that took effect? I remember reading something about that at the time but can't now remember what I read!

Yeah, I always reviewed the user input needed to support AC as something people did to benefit others as well as themselves. But that didn't give them any sort of interest in the product as a whole that warranted the criticism when it was sold. Why would they have any property or privacy interest in information being uploaded onto the public internet? I have noticed less updating since Garmin bought it, but that may be more regional as someone else alluded to. I hope it survives.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Exile

BY GDPR you mean the new EU requirements that took effect? I remember reading something about that at the time but can't now remember what I read!

GDPR is the General Data Protection Regulation in the EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...ion_Regulation . Many people, including most Americans, still don't understand the global impact of that regulation. Remember the original California automobile emissions regulation that quickly came to affect cars everywhere in the US. GDPR is similar but faster. For companies like Garmin and even ActiveCaptain before the acquisition with global reach the effect was huge. All those little pop-ups you see about cookies and personal data? GDPR.

I don't have any better access to metrics than you do. My perception is that updates have dropped substantially since the acquisition of ActiveCaptain by Garmin. I think some of that is due to bobbles during handoff, poor response time to finalizing and publicizing the new interfaces to other users, and poor pace of development in the Flash to HTML5 transition. Using Navionics vector charts on the web interface was horribly offputting to those of us grounded in rasters. As has been noted the Garmin culture of proprietary solutions creeps in over and over. Everything is fine until it isn't. The arbitrary Garmin chartplotter reboot problem has yet to be acknowledged by the company. *sigh*

On the other hand, as near as I can tell, the navigation tab in the Garmin ActiveCaptain app is Blue Chart Mobile. The tool is still there. Garmin has not been very accommodating accommodating chart purchases in BCM and could have managed their customer base much better.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

There’s a ass for every seat.

What benifit would I get from helping you make a closed source product for your own gain?

Where the ROI for anyone but you?

Well as someone who has benefited GREATLY in the past and who continues to get lots out of AC, I hope your ass just stays in its seat and hopefully it will be sitting on your typing fingers.

I hate this thread really. Even the title points a wrong picture. Active Captain has been, and continues to be, a great resource! I’m still using it pretty much every passage/trip and try to remember to write new reviews and updated info. If people don’t like it for some reason they are welcome to just not use it. If all you have to post is complaints you don’t really have anything useful to share.

[sgtPluck]

I’ve thought about this a lot, I’m a boater and CTO with lots of experience in commercial and Open Source projects, mobile apps and APIs.

Without question, the ‘community’ - the ones contributing and using the data, would be best served by the contributed data being available to *any* product developer whether commercial or open source. Meaning we can access and contribute from any product that uses the data.

To achieve this crowd-sourced data itself should be contributed under and made available with a license akin to Creative Commons ’Attribution-ShareAlike CC BY-SA` license.

I would encourage the OP to apply these terms to the contributed data for your product. The incentive for you I would suggest is that, as you’ve probably gathered from the reactions on this thread, it would motivate users to use your app and contribute data using through it.

If some critical mass of contributions can be reached, providing the utility of having an API (commercial or otherwise) for accessing/contributing the data would help add value for the products using it and for the users contributing their data.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

GDPR is the General Data Protection Regulation in the EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...ion_Regulation . Many people, including most Americans, still don't understand the global impact of that regulation. Remember the original California automobile emissions regulation that quickly came to affect cars everywhere in the US. GDPR is similar but faster. For companies like Garmin and even ActiveCaptain before the acquisition with global reach the effect was huge. All those little pop-ups you see about cookies and personal data? GDPR.

[lightbulb]. Thanks Dave -- now I remember. My excuse (this time ) is that this thread started awhile back. And yes, like many Calif. auto emissions that are more stringent than the rest of the US, the effect of such a broad tech reg by the EU is that it will necessarily apply everywhere. Our fast-moving tech world continues to be a moving target so its caveat emptor for the end user. Then again, there are huge & obvious benefits to the end user from all these advancements as well.

I don't have any better access to metrics than you do. My perception is that updates have dropped substantially since the acquisition of ActiveCaptain by Garmin. I think some of that is due to bobbles during handoff, poor response time to finalizing and publicizing the new interfaces to other users, and poor pace of development in the Flash to HTML5 transition. Using Navionics vector charts on the web interface was horribly offputting to those of us grounded in rasters. As has been noted the Garmin culture of proprietary solutions creeps in over and over. Everything is fine until it isn't. The arbitrary Garmin chartplotter reboot problem has yet to be acknowledged by the company. *sigh*

On the other hand, as near as I can tell, the navigation tab in the Garmin ActiveCaptain app is Blue Chart Mobile. The tool is still there. Garmin has not been very accommodating accommodating chart purchases in BCM and could have managed their customer base much better.

My impression is that updates have dropped off as well, at least along the US e. coast and ICW. Good to hear users like you & Sailorboy are still contributing, but the confusion generated by the transition may have -- justifiably or not -- cast doubt on whether Garmin intends to keep AC going. Hard to imagine why they wouldn't, but that's what myself and many others thought about BCM as well.

[Hartings]

Am I correct in saying that Active Captain was, and still is, a very US-centric app ? From a European viewpoint it never really took off ?

[Jeff - RED HEAD]

Originally Posted by Exile

As I'm sure you know, whether or not a particular app is successful or not is often dependent on highly subjective factors

I used to think that too. Nope, no longer. Successful apps and products are based on strategic thinking and doing the right thing at the right time along with having something that is unique (otherwise, it's ultimately about price). I proved that to myself by helping an internet guitar instructor who had a wonderfully unique technique for teaching guitar to adults. But it wasn't working for him and he had to keep doing normal neighborhood lessons in order to make enough income. He was willing to work and I took him on. The result now 18 months later is that he no longer teaches lessons and his wife has quit her job to help him with the day-to-day money that is rolling in.


Most people aren't willing to work hard and smart.