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Old 16-02-2018, 20:46   #61
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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I believe the opposite. I believe responsible people purchase insurance because they are responsible people.


I don't think you fully understand the concept of moral hazard, a term first coined for the insurance industry:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

Also the thread is about MANDATORY insurance. So in your words: insurance for irresponsible people....
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Old 16-02-2018, 21:00   #62
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
I don't think you fully understand the concept of moral hazard, a term first coined for the insurance industry:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

Also the thread is about MANDATORY insurance. So in your words: insurance for irresponsible people....
I'm a reasonably literate person, I understand it, I just don't believe it applies to the vast majority. It simply does not apply to anyone in my circle.
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Old 16-02-2018, 21:14   #63
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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You think panama is also going to require mandatory liability insurance as per the topic of this thread? The discussion is regarding the US.
Maybe you can direct me to where the original poster suggested it was only for the USA
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Old 16-02-2018, 22:46   #64
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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I'm a reasonably literate person, I understand it, I just don't believe it applies to the vast majority. It simply does not apply to anyone in my circle.


In your circle, is there anyone with say a $500k boat that would never go sailing without hull insurance because losing the boat would wipe out all their assets? If so, it's an example of moral hazard, without insurance they would stay on the dock, with insurance they'll take more risk and actually "

I once got a rental car and realized half way through the rental that my CC insurance would provide only primary coverage, but not liability. I can tell you it certainly made me a lot less relaxed and more focused driving. You might not realize how much moral hazard applies until you go without insurance...
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Old 16-02-2018, 22:47   #65
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Maybe you can direct me to where the original poster suggested it was only for the USA


I read between the lines
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Old 16-02-2018, 23:03   #66
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Mandatory insurance is just a modest name for a government sponsored extortion.
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Old 16-02-2018, 23:45   #67
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Like I wrote earlier, when looked at from a cost-benefit perspective, liability insurance is actually a pretty deal, but thatís mainly because the cost is (typically) quite low. I only wish it were easier to get as a sole product from the market place. And I do wonder whether the price would artificially rise when it no longer operated as a free market product.

But the real negative with making it mandatory is, itís a solution in search of a problem. Notwithstanding the very real issues identified by the OP, the fact remains that this kind of situation is very rare. Liability insurance (including environmental cleanup, etc.) is cheap because it is rarely required. Insurance companies understand this, and price the product accordingly.

The cost to administer such an edict would also likely be quite high, so while Iím not opposed to the idea of mandatory liability insurance in theory, in practical terms, it makes little sense.
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Old 17-02-2018, 06:11   #68
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
In your circle, is there anyone with say a $500k boat that would never go sailing without hull insurance because losing the boat would wipe out all their assets? If so, it's an example of moral hazard, without insurance they would stay on the dock, with insurance they'll take more risk and actually "

I once got a rental car and realized half way through the rental that my CC insurance would provide only primary coverage, but not liability. I can tell you it certainly made me a lot less relaxed and more focused driving. You might not realize how much moral hazard applies until you go without insurance...
Your assumption that everyone sees things the way you do and lives by your rules is a little off.
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Old 17-02-2018, 06:31   #69
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That's certainly not the case in a world of mandatory insurance.

Please note that I didn't say people with insurance are less responsible. I said on average an individual that has insurance will act more recklessly than if that individual had no insurance.
It does in my opinion, lead to decisions to hit the button and abandon ship much quicker than needed, or even when not needed.
A man with Comprehensive hull coverage has little to fight for.. whereas the uninsured or Liability only has everything to lose.. that's why some abandon intact Swans because they ran out of propane and others limp in gaunt and exhausted with jury rigged mast stumps.
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Old 17-02-2018, 06:51   #70
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Yes there should
+1

If the owner can be identified, give him the bill.
The courts can seek out the owner's assets and seize them until the liability has been satisfied.
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Old 17-02-2018, 06:54   #71
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Mandatory insurance is just a modest name for a government sponsored extortion.
I tend to disagree with regards to liability.
Liability insurance just makes sure that any boat owner (rich or poor) can pay for the consequences of his activites.




In Europe there is no general requirement for liability insurance as far as I know.

For example you can cruise german waters without insurance if you stay on the hook. But you will not get into any port or marina without it ! Nobody wants you if you can't show valid insurance papers.

I think spain is the same. No madatory insurance but you will not find any marina or port without insurance, not for one night.

But some countries in Europe do require liability even if you stay on the hook. Want to cruise greece? No cruise permit ( DEKPA ) without insurance. Same for Italy, even though they don't have a cruising permit the insurance is mandatory (enforced by customs when boarding a boat, which happens from time to time).




But what exactly are we talking about?
I pay around 110 Euro per year for worldwide liability coverage. That is for 10 Million Euro coverage per incident, and includes damage to other peoples boats, marinas, personal injuries, oil spills, wreck removal, fines for damage to natural resources, ...
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Old 17-02-2018, 07:39   #72
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Since this discussion started over the USCG having to remove wrecks caused by last year's hurricanes, I am wondering why boaters should be treated any differently by the government than any other victim of these hurricanes. Does the government track down all the home owners whose houses were destroyed and charge them for debris removal or require them to have liability insurance for removing their roof from the mangroves or the harbor or the local forest? How about removing their cars from the trees or streams? I don't think so. These things are just part of the disaster cleanup and rebuild. So these boats ended up on the beach somewhere or on the bottom, how is that different from the roof in the trees. So did these boats end up there because the mooring fail, or the dock broke loose. Did the mooring owner have liability insurance for his failed mooring or the marina owner because his dock failed and took out half the harbor. How about a roof that flew off and took out three down wind houses. Who is responsible for the cleanup of all the debris from those houses. If all of this had to be litigated in court the courts would be tied up for decades trying to apportion blame. In a disaster situation, things are just cleaned up, there is no attempt to determine which scrap of debris was owned by whom and how much they should pay for its removal. Why treat boats any differently?
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Old 17-02-2018, 07:39   #73
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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I tend to disagree with regards to liability.
Liability insurance just makes sure that any boat owner (rich or poor) can pay for the consequences of his activites.
Which is perfectly fine as long as buying the insurance is you decision. I donít want the government dictate how I must spend my money. They already do enough damage with taxes.
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Old 17-02-2018, 07:44   #74
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Which is perfectly fine as long as buying the insurance is you decision. I donít want the government dictate how I must spend my money. They already do enough damage with taxes.
How is the govt requiring boat insurance an issue. Doesn't the Govt require you to have car insurance? or do you not have car insurance? whats the difference?

I guess the insurance thing for boats is a topic because its relatively new. 35 years ago when I started sailing I didn't know a single person that carried any sort of insurance, but over the years as costs have gone up and boat prices have gone up it's becoming more common!
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Old 17-02-2018, 07:49   #75
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Yes to mandatory liability insurance.
Why should others be expected to clean up your mess for free?
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