Sailing is Sailing - Or is it ?

[Ex-Calif]

Everyone has opinions so...

- First take a basic and skipper keelboat course - this will likely be in a 22-26 mono. You will learn some and get a couple of certs
- If you can, try to infiltrate the racing scene. You will learn a ton, have fun and meet more sailors
- Buy your first boat in the 25-30 foot range. Make sure it has inboard diesel, electrics, lights etc. you will be learning about boat maintenance and systems on this. These boats should be had sub-$10,000 all day long near you and cost 500-600 a month to operate and maintain
- Charter a couple of big monos and cats after you build up a sailing resume
- Save your boat bucks for a cruising cat or a big mono once you know what you like

I cant tell you the number of skippers I sail with that have never learned much after an initial course. They have ingrained habits that are hard to break and quite honestly most are barely adequate sailors.

Good luck and welcome to CF!

[modifier]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Any advice centering around getting as much deck time as possible before I commit is well taken. I tend to like to do the research and preparation then do something once rather than do it half way then do it again later. That's why my downstairs bathroom has been gutted for 10 years I don't need it and would rather wait to do it right the first time, plus by waiting the design has been refined and improved over what I would have done if I rushed right into it. So what if it takes a while. Lots of things take a while and I eventually get to most all of them. I think my friend's affinity for mono hulls comes from his ownership of a mono hull, as seems common from reading the debate threads. Also more stuff happens quicker and to a greater degree with a mono, I surmise, so perhaps that experience would ramp up the learning curve and help with getting the feel for the dynamics of a boat in water. Cost is also certainly in favor or a mono, although I was looking at a little tiny Corsair trimaran at the show that was pretty cheap even brand new and I'm sure I could learn a lot about sailing on something even as small as that however I think I need something big enough to get me to Bermuda as someone suggested or I'd be upgrading pretty quickly after getting tired of only day sailing. But then I have a friend up in Portland who has been sailing a small open mono for years on lakes and still loves it. I'm listening to everyone and will look into getting involved with the locals first order. I have a contact for a local guy who is building his own cat so calling him would probably be a good place to start. I've thought about posting a survey for people who have sailed both mono and multi hulled craft with something like: A. Sailed both went with mono and am staying. B. Sailed both went with multi and am staying. C. Sailed mono for years went to multi and am not going back. D. Sailed multi for years and went mono and am not going back. E. Love them both equally. Wonder how that would turn out? Cheers. Sorry about the lack of paragraphs. I've tried twice to add them and it won't let me.

[Factor]

Funny you should mention corsair, instead of wating your time on a 5 knot SB I would give serious thought to a 28 or 31 foot Corsair , great fun boats, will sail anywhere you want to go, and teach you about apparent wind variations, lots of fun and can be trailered to spots all over the place. Quite comfortable (at least in the 31) for a few weeks at a time.

[justwaiting]

Originally Posted by modifier

I've thought about posting a survey for people who have sailed both mono and multi hulled craft with something like: A. Sailed both went with mono and am staying. B. Sailed both went with multi and am staying. C. Sailed mono for years went to multi and am not going back. D. Sailed multi for years and went mono and am not going back. E. Love them both equally. Wonder how that would turn out? Cheers.

Answer, a lot warmer than your welcome and laced with catty comments

[capn_billl]

I really liked sailing on the hobie cat, but my experience on a laser showed me I can flip it over quite easily in heavy winds. I personally would prefer a boat that turns itself back upright than a boat that if flipped ends the day.

[modifier]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I really liked sailing on the hobie cat, but my experience on a laser showed me I can flip it over quite easily in heavy winds. I personally would prefer a boat that turns itself back upright than a boat that if flipped ends the day.

Well I guess you better be pretty well battened down if you roll a monohull or I would think that all that water in the hull combined with that heavy keel is going to send it to the bottom.

I'm not trying to be smart but proponents of mono hulls always use this example. Is that a pretty common occurrence? Capsizing and self righting? One would think it must be

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by modifier

Well I guess you better be pretty well battened down if you roll a monohull or I would think that all that water in the hull combined with that heavy keel is going to send it to the bottom.

I'm not trying to be smart but proponents of mono hulls always use this example. Is that a pretty common occurrence? Capsizing and self righting? One would think it must be

I guess one could say from my limited experience that mono's are easier to flip. I would say from what I know that knockdowns are slightly more common than sinkings. On the Laser it was an almost daily occurance, I would expect as the boat gets bigger it would happen far less often proportunal to size.

On the sea accounts, of experienced marinars caught by an off shore storm. Almost all of them report the boat flipping, at least a couple of times in the storm. The full keeled boats self righted, and continued on. The modern keel production boat that I read the account of stayed turtle and sank. ALL of the cats capsized stayed upside down, until rescued.

On the other hand it is most likely very difficult to capsize a multi hull with no sails up. Or if the helmsman is quick to depower when it heels.

I'm a mono guy for now, mostly because of cost of big ocean going cat.

This debate may never end, but at least I got a chance to put in my two cents.

[modifier]

So by "knock down" you mean the sail or mast hits the water but the boat does not flip all the way over? Obviously if this happens in a cat you are upside down and your comment about bigger boats makes sense too. Here is a vid of what you are talking about with Lasers going over.

Crash and Burn Week # 48: Flip - YouTube

"The full keeled boats self righted, and continued on. The modern keel production boat that I read the account of stayed turtle and sank." This is an interesting statement. Am I to understand that in the pursuit of cost savings and lower weight (more speed) modern mono hulls are built with much less robust keels in proportion to their overall size? If so, then from speculation ,once again, the old adage of a mono hull ship self righting after capsizing perhaps does not apply to most modern craft and only really applies if you sail big antiques. Does that sound about right?

[mrohr]

Originally Posted by modifier

Hi. I'm new to sailing for the most part. I sailed with a couple of friends up around NY about 20 years ago for a few years on a couple of different boats (mono) in good and bad weather but not extensively and I have never owned a boat of my own or been on one for more than a week.

I spend the winters in Miami and don't really have a lot to do down here. I have always dreamed of owning a sail boat so I've been thinking more about a boat purchase lately. Plus I just went to the All Sail boat show a couple of days ago. I had never been on a really nice cat before and was amazed at how easy and comfortable it would be to live on one. I'm talking the 42 to 50 foot neighborhood. Nothing like that in my budget at the moment but I am in investment real-estate and eventually the market should come back and hopefully at that point I can get out from under a couple of holdings and probably afford a nice boat. No kids or ex wives to give it too so might as well enjoy it while I can.

I looked up one old friend whom I hadn't spoken to for many years and bent his ear for a bit talking about boats. He has been sailing the same 36 foot mono for at least 25 years now and cruised for 4 years straight at one point so he's become pretty seasoned. While I trust his advice I thought I would throw out a few things to the group and see if everyone agrees. Even though it seems like sailors rarely agree on anything from my lurking around on here for a bit

So first off he said a couple of things that made sense and one that I'm not convinced about. Primarily he said study and read as much as you can and take some classes before buying anything. That sounds like good advice. He also said absolutely do not buy a big boat right off and stay in the 28 to 36 foot range until you have a quite a few nautical miles under your feet. That sounds reasonable too.

I'm pretty much convinced I eventually want a catamaran but he said absolutely to start with a mono hull and that mono hull sailing it the only "real sailing". That's the part that I'm not convinced of. And I'm also not clear on the size to start with.

Anyone who has spent much time down here knows that if you want to stick around Miami there really isn't much to do in terms of sailing. Sure you can hit the water and sail around but there really isn't any place to head to unless you go down to the Keys. So if I'm going to be stuck day sailing in the bay or the immediate ocean I might as well get an even smaller boat and just learn how to sail and not worry about being able to stay aboard except for a cat nap. Or if I want to be able to go out for a week or 2 at a time then I need a bigger boat. Except for docking sailing a sub 30 foot boat should be about the same as sailing a sub 40 foot boat in terms of technique shouldn't it? Once I get into a bigger boat I would want to have everything as automated as possible because I will likely be sailing solo.

Then secondly if I know I want a cat then wouldn't it be just as good to learn on a small cat instead of a small mono? We don't even have to go to the discussion of the ultimate advantages of each as I have already read threads for hours on that topic on various forums and one book dedicated solely to that debate.

Recommendations for must reads on technique and cruising for the new sailor would be great. And if any locals know of any good schools they would recommend that would be helpful too.

Thanks for any input.

Listen to your friend.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by modifier

So by "knock down" you mean the sail or mast hits the water but the boat does not flip all the way over? Obviously if this happens in a cat you are upside down and your comment about bigger boats makes sense too. Here is a vid of what you are talking about with Lasers going over.

"The full keeled boats self righted, and continued on. The modern keel production boat that I read the account of stayed turtle and sank." This is an interesting statement. Am I to understand that in the pursuit of cost savings and lower weight (more speed) modern mono hulls are built with much less robust keels in proportion to their overall size? If so, then from speculation ,once again, the old adage of a mono hull ship self righting after capsizing perhaps does not apply to most modern craft and only really applies if you sail big antiques. Does that sound about right?

Yeah; that about sums it up.

Every boat has a capsize ratio, and righting arm. The old full keel heavily ballasted antiques, (and newer boats designed like them). Have high enough ratios they are only stable right side up. A fin keel with a wide flat cabin top is more likely to be stable upside down, (especially adding weight of mast, and wet sails). Most blue water class hulls have angles of vanishing stability of over 110degs, some over 120degs.

My Aquarius is also designed to be self righting, (and was tested by builder). I also recently saw a video of a blue water class 40ft that was tested with a big crane that pulled it completly inverted, (keel straight up), and it returned to upright in seconds, (minus the mast).

I feel more comfortable, and safer in such a boat. I have sailed racing design mono's that I knew flipping was a one way trip. I did not feel as safe, but I reefed earlier and did just fine. How often do we bury a rail anyway? Or for that matter ride out a force 10 storm while rounding the cape? (In 20 years of boating I haven't been in one yet), With a little luck, and a lot of carefull preperation and weather routing, I may never be in one.

[modifier]

So they do make modern boats with full keels. I think if I was going to do any extensive ocean cruising in a mono I would want just a boat.

But like you and others say, these days with such good weather tracking getting caught is the skippers fault most of the time.

Some Mono porn. That's gotta be a blast. Even if you're dead tired when it's over.

Extreme Sailing and offshore sailboat racing while you earn money online... - YouTube

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by modifier

So they do make modern boats with full keels. I think if I was going to do any extensive ocean cruising in a mono I would want just a boat.

But like you and others say, these days with such good weather tracking getting caught is the skippers fault most of the time.

Some Mono porn. That's gotta be a blast. Even if you're dead tired when it's over.

Why would you want a boat with an outdated keel form. Righting arms have nothing to do with a particular keel shape and all to do with keel design. Modern keels are significantly better hydrodynamically. Nor is the comment about stability true. In fact modern cabin tops contribute significantly to improved angle of vanishing stability and this factor isn't taken into account in AVS calculations.

If you really feel that such numbers decide your thinking them buy a Moody' 45ds. Which has no part of its stability curve in negative territory.

Boats are much more complex then such simple issues.

Dave

[modifier]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Boats are much more complex then such simple issues.

Dave

I'm sure you are right. Hey I'm just starting out. Lots to learn

[Bash]

This is why little kids have all the advantage when learning to sail. There's a certain age when a capsize is less something to be feared and more something to be looked forward to.

Bottom line: it really doesn't matter whether you go out with one hull, two hulls, or three. What matters is that you maximize your time on the water.

As far as the rest is concerned--wear a lifejacket.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why would you want a boat with an outdated keel form. Dave

For marina hopping, no, A midwinter Atlantic crossing, yes.