Keel discussion

[Don C L]

It's a pretty old discussion, I suspect the participants have long since moved on. Besides, we all decided long ago that the long keel, like the one I got, is the far superior design!

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Don C L

It's a pretty old discussion, I suspect the participants have long since moved on. Besides, we all decided long ago that the long keel, like the one I got, is the far superior design!

What kind of anchor do you use? [emoji849][emoji3]

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by river251

subscribed

Might not see much activity... the last post in this thread was about 14 years ago.

Jim

edit: I see that I wasn't the first to notice the date!

[river251]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Might not see much activity... the last post in this thread was about 14 years ago.

Jim

edit: I see that I wasn't the first to notice the date!

Yes, I didn't notice that. but I subscribed because of a couple of very thorough posts in the thread so I wanted to be able to find them easily. I bet that thinking about keels and hulls has changed in the last 14 years. The post about balance and design of hulls mattering as much as keel design was intriguing and there was a reference to a book and an article on that.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Don C L

It's a pretty old discussion, I suspect the participants have long since moved on. Besides, we all decided long ago that the long keel, like the one I got, is the far superior design!

OMG, you mean you don't carry a spare

What happens if the water runs away? do you fall over

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Pete7

OMG, you mean you don't carry a spare

What happens if the water runs away? do you fall over

Actually, yes, that is exactly what happens!

[Wckoek]

I like to keep my boat within a comfortable displacement range, probably lower 30 feet or smaller long keel, and higher 30's fin keel.
Anything lighter than 4-5 tonnes would be uncomfortable offshore, and heavier than 8-9 tonnes would be difficult to singlehand.

[Yihang]

I guess the OP eventually went to a boat show, stepped on a catamaran and that was all she wrote.

[river251]

I know this is a 14 year old thread, but Mike, if you are still around, I will be tremendously grateful if you could help me understand what you mean by a balanced keel. When looking at a sailboat to buy, how would one know?

Thanks. Fingers crossed.


Jim

Originally Posted by BC Mike

If the hull is the right shape and weight, you can hang whatever you want on the bottom. If the hull is not balanced a full keel will not fix it, neither will a fin keel. Many full keel boats have a lot of bad habits as the keel is trying to cover up for an unbalanced hull. Some have awful weather helm. Comparing two well balanced boats, one with a fin and one with a full keel, some may prefer the motion of one over the other. The full keel will not be as quick to vary its course. The claim for the full keel is that it holds its course, but what if it is not pointed where you want it to go. Broaches usually occur at higher speeds. All the fast boats have fin keels. A full keel will broach just as easy as anything else, if the speed is pushed. Only the fin keels seem to be able to really push the speed up. But the hull is also the big issue as well as the keel, the full keels seem to be on heavy boats that tend to trip on their nose. I would be looking for a balanced hull as my first priority, and if it is balanced I would prefer a fin keel because I think going to windward is important, and drag kills speed.
Michael

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by river251

I know this is a 14 year old thread, but Mike, if you are still around, I will be tremendously grateful if you could help me understand what you mean by a balanced keel. When looking at a sailboat to buy, how would one know?

Thanks. Fingers crossed.


Jim

I think what he is referring to is the hull, not the keel. The shape of the hull in relation to the sail driving force is what I believe he is referring to, as well as the fact that a full keel offers resistance to leeway, being dragged to leeward, along its entire length, while a fin keel has much less resistance forward and aft of the keel if that makes sense, and can be more prone to yawing. So the hull shape offers lateral resistance, and the driving center of the sail plan, the center of effort, must be located correctly in relation to the center of lateral resistance to achieve a good balance, i.e. the boat does not try to pull one way or the other while sailing. There is a little more that goes into it, like speed, lift of keel and angle of heel, but I THINK he was referring to correct placement of C.E (Center of effort) relative to CLR (center of lateral resistance.)
He may also be describing the distribution of the displacement of the hull itself, as in a very narrow entry of more of a racing design spreading out to most of the volume behind the mid point of the hull compared to the other extreme where the displacement is spread evenly along the entire hull like a Tahiti ketch or a Westsail kind of design.

[Ibetitsthisway]

The OP asked a simple question and I want to add a simple answer - for all readers with the same troubles.

I have a full keel boat. I hit ground 2 time this year allready. I dont care.

medium long and a strong skeg would be what I would be willing to sail for the agility advantages. Thats it in my humble opinion for the cruiser.

all else is risky in the end. and risk makes you unrelaxed. I dont wanna be unrelaxed.

[river251]

doh! Yes I meant hull, not keel. And you answered accordingly.

I have thought if I go with a monohull, the full keel boats seem safest for cross ocean, but the Contessa 32's reputation has me admiring it's hull and keel design. A fully encapsulated ballast in a fairly long fin with a skeg hung rudder.

I've read often that the full keel has the most directional stability so needs the least correction. I wonder if the Contessa 32 is much inferior to a long keel in this regard.

The contessa 32 is too small inside to live in I think, the only bunk is the triangular bed in the bow or reassembling the dining area, neither appeals. So that's why I started the thread asking about other boats with encapsulated fin keels with skeg hung rudders. Several were suggested already and I have a longer list I'm verifying the encapsulated ballast before posting.

Originally Posted by Don C L

I think what he is referring to is the hull, not the keel. The shape of the hull in relation to the sail driving force is what I believe he is referring to, as well as the fact that a full keel offers resistance to leeway, being dragged to leeward, along its entire length, while a fin keel has much less resistance forward and aft of the keel if that makes sense, and can be more prone to yawing. So the hull shape offers lateral resistance, and the driving center of the sail plan, the center of effort, must be located correctly in relation to the center of lateral resistance to achieve a good balance, i.e. the boat does not try to pull one way or the other while sailing. There is a little more that goes into it, like speed, lift of keel and angle of heel, but I THINK he was referring to correct placement of C.E (Center of effort) relative to CLR (center of lateral resistance.)
He may also be describing the distribution of the displacement of the hull itself, as in a very narrow entry of more of a racing design spreading out to most of the volume behind the mid point of the hull compared to the other extreme where the displacement is spread evenly along the entire hull like a Tahiti ketch or a Westsail kind of design.

[river251]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

The OP asked a simple question and I want to add a simple answer - for all readers with the same troubles.

I have a full keel boat. I hit ground 2 time this year already. I dont care.

medium long and a strong skeg would be what I would be willing to sail for the agility advantages. Thats it in my humble opinion for the cruiser.

all else is risky in the end. and risk makes you unrelaxed. I dont wanna be unrelaxed.

Good point. Have you ever sailed an enclosed ballast fin keel, with a skeg hung rudder? How much difference in performance compared to the full keel?

[Rockinar]

Im full keel for life. I may not be able to navigate a marina with razor precision, but I can hit sandbars, reefs, crab traps and dead whales and nothing happens other than "oops" and I keep gong. I can let go of the steering, and run up to the bow to fix tangled ropes, pick up fenders, prep docking lines or whatever and the boat wont try to spin 180 degrees like a top, it will just drift off course a bit. It might not be the fastest, but thats why its called cruising.

I just find full keel more enjoyable and relaxing to sail.

[river251]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

Im full keel for life. I may not be able to navigate a marina with razor precision, but I can hit sandbars, reefs, crab traps and dead whales and nothing happens other than "oops" and I keep gong. I can let go of the steering, and run up to the bow to fix tangled ropes, pick up fenders, prep docking lines or whatever and the boat wont try to spin 180 degrees like a top, it will just drift off course a bit. It might not be the fastest, but thats why its called cruising.

I just find full keel more enjoyable and relaxing to sail.

That was a nice post. What sort of boat do you sail Rockinar?

Thanks.