Inboard engines and a changing world

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Those scenarios are both extreme and unlikely. First and mainly - you're not a slave to your neighbours' patterns, it's only your loads that would matter. If you're a shiftworker and you cook and do laundry at night, then you charge when you sleep.

Only if you live in a private home with its own electrical mains supply which individual homes have, then so long as you stay within those electrical limits, your fine.
But even then your loads matter, ever heard of brownouts during Summer when air conditioning loads are high? Air conditioning is a fraction of the amp draw to charge an electric car.
My last house I would have been fine, we had three phase power run to the barn so I even had three phase available and the house had dual electrical boxes so every circuit was a home run, and I could handle 400 amps at 220V, twice what houses typically can handle. Electrical system was speced by someone who had a fetish if you will for overbuilding.
I believe I could have charged two electric cars while being in the steam shower, and the Wife cooking and the drier running, but my house was an extreme anomaly, a lot of extra money was spent installing an over capacity electrical system.
I’d suspect the average built spec house may have to have an additional electrical panel installed, you can do that in houses, usually, if the mains can support it.

But for those that live in apt buildings, those buildings were designed of course for the loads they were expected to see, over capacity for electrical mains may be against code and is at least a waste of money by the builder, so it’s not done.

The amount of water that can be supplied and the amount of waste that can be carried away and the amount of electrical power that can be supplied all have limits well within the design of the building. Those limits can be increased, but not easily, and then only if the systems that they connect to can handle the increase.
One building here and there or one house here and there, sure your fine, but every building or every house? Then they whole system has to be upgraded, and that is going to be real expensive.
In the long run maybe it’s best, cause the existing system is old and many advances have been made, but it’s going to take longer than you think and be more expensive than you think, and how is it going to be paid for?
Normally by increased costs of electricity, but people won’t vote for that and they will complain, nobody wants a huge increase in their electric bill, especially when they are now using a LOT more power.

This whole discussion is a lot like the electric boat threads, many who believe, want to believe and your not going to convince them otherwise, they believe.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Chotu

...the entire point of this thread was to discuss the changing energy sources and how to best design a boat's system for the easiest possible refit.

...Outboards means an hour to replace with new propulsion, whatever that may be...

When it comes down to it, an inboard sailboat engine can be swapped in a day, if everything is onsite and there's an experienced crew. Saildrive might take longer if there's hull work to do.

If I was refitting a good boat today to be a future-proof:

• The best fundamentals: solid chainplates, overbuilt rudder system, solid keel attachment, etc
• Interior work that maximizes access to components and systems, so that tankage , batteries or equipment can be fixed or replaced without big hassle and interior panel system that can be opened and modified easily
• Complete rewiring, with an easily-accessed central terminal board, easy-to-work-on panel area, and generous cable raceways with access at both ends
• Good solar charging system
• A reliable, well-supported diesel engine with generous access.

I've left out many specifics and details, but the idea is for a blend of flexible and reliable, that can be achieved NOW. I'm pretty certain that diesel fuel will be widely available and reasonable for the next 20 years.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by daletournier

My boat has two tanks that combined hold 320 liters (84 gallon) Running conservatively my 75hp yanmar will give approx 700nm. Both tanks are under my rear cabin bed.

Those two tanks take up a area of approx 11.3 cubic feet.

I have 480w of solar , I have the space to increase that to 1000w. Obviously this has nothing to do with the diesel but it does if changing to electric . For ease of argument let's forget the solar.

So ,to put things into a more visual context , what area would be required to carry the equivalent amount of Lifepo batteries needed to replace 320 l of diesel ? Assuming the eclectic motor was speced correctly to replace the 75hp yanmar.

1 liter at approx 1,800 rpm gets approx 2.5 nm, how much battery space is required to get the same distance at that speed?

What would the weight of the required batteries be?

I have no idea.

So at an attempt to answer my own question.

Energy density of Lifepo is 790kj/l
Energy density of diesel is 40mj/l

Theres 1,000 kj to a mj?????

I'm sure theres alot more to it BUT I would need literally 50 times the storage capacity of my current fuel tanks?

Time for some new technology I feel.....blast away.[emoji1787][emoji1787]

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Only if you live in a private home with its own electrical mains supply which individual homes have, then so long as you stay within those electrical limits, your fine.
But even then your loads matter, ever heard of brownouts during Summer when air conditioning loads are high? Air conditioning is a fraction of the amp draw to charge an electric car.

I still think you're overstating the case. According to this example site, an EV can recharge from 240v/30A in about 1.5 hours. Let's allow 2 hours. Clearly, just about any house service could manage that. An apartment parking garage could have 4 charging cycles during the overnight.

Peak loading (AC etc) generally occurs during the day.

We have many years to solve this. By then, the fetish for larger vehicles will have run its course, and since the majority of EV users will be urban, the EVs will be smaller and lighter, meaning a faster recharge and/or lower current.

(and if we get our act together on urban design and public transit, fewer urban dwellers will own vehicles, and renting the few times they need to travel further)

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Those scenarios are both extreme and unlikely. First and mainly - you're not a slave to your neighbours' patterns, it's only your loads that would matter. If you're a shiftworker and you cook and do laundry at night, then you charge when you sleep.

Second, sophisticated load management is already a thing.

It would be simple to have automated charge control that only runs the charger when your home's current draw is below a given point. Commercial buildings already use load management to keep down their peak draw (eg don't let every cooling unit run at the same time). It's possible now to have coordinated load management, cycling (eg rotating charging - neighbourhood A, then B, then C) at low cost.

Home EV charging is an easy problem to manage, and the conversion to EV isn't happening overnight.

(Yes, this and the EV thread seem to have merged...)

Thank you for this post.

I'm quite surprised by the nay-sayers on this forum. I think it points out why America is falling so far behind the rest of the world in technological advancement. Thank goodness for the Musks of this world that can and do change the world and don't listen to the FUD.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Those scenarios are both extreme and unlikely. First and mainly - you're not a slave to your neighbours' patterns, it's only your loads that would matter. If you're a shiftworker and you cook and do laundry at night, then you charge when you sleep.

Second, sophisticated load management is already a thing.

It would be simple to have automated charge control that only runs the charger when your home's current draw is below a given point. Commercial buildings already use load management to keep down their peak draw (eg don't let every cooling unit run at the same time). It's possible now to have coordinated load management, cycling (eg rotating charging - neighbourhood A, then B, then C) at low cost.

Home EV charging is an easy problem to manage, and the conversion to EV isn't happening overnight.

(Yes, this and the EV thread seem to have merged...)

as to ev I actually am considering it due to just about every parking lot in my area that is owned by a government agency has at least 4 car charging stations that are free .
The city marina next to mine has 6 stations which means I would be able to go electric car and never pay to charge it .

However as to my boat it will always ( for the rest of my life ) remain diesel for the iron wind.

Diesel fuel isn't a supply and demand product.
Look back to the 1970's when diesel was 90% just used for commercial motivation. ( otr trucks and trains. ) the cost was less than 1/3 the cost of gasoline . And as a side note there are approximately 2 gallons of diesel produced for each gallon of gasoline.
As long as gasoline is produced there will be diesel fuel.
Not to mention they will run on any oil that is or has been rendered low in glycerin.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by newhaul

as to ev I actually am considering it due to just about every parking lot in my area that is owned by a government agency has at least 4 car charging stations that are free .

The city marina next to mine has 6 stations which means I would be able to go electric car and never pay to charge it .

Those huge government subsidies are what makes the case for an electric car, first your subsidized in buying it and can get the power for free, and oh by the way you don’t pay anything for road use taxes either.

My problem with all of that is that is the average taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy, and I think that’s wrong. The funny thing is that so many refuse to see that, they want to gloss over that, they are true believers.

Any thing, any new technology ought to stand on its own, making the poorer class subsidize the wealthier class is wrong.

But most of us, to include me, would do the same thing, I’m not saying your wrong for doing it.

A few years ago when the Electric vehicle subsidies first got started, all or most of the wealthier people in my town got free electric golf carts, to pull behind their F-150’s to go golfing on the weekend.
$7,500 subsidy just about covers the cost of a golf cart I believe.

The electric car thing will happen, based on economics, which is the way it should be, but they should pay road use tax just as all other vehicles do, and they should not be subsidized, if it’s a good viable thing and I think it is, then it will happen.

[a64pilot]

Newhaul, if I were you, I’d look real hard at the used EV market, except for Tesla which enjoys a status similar to a Rolex watch, the used market in EV’s is extremely bad, they lose value immediately. Maybe that’s a result of the subsidies or not I’m not sure, but you can get one heck of a buy in a nearly new Leaf.

[GordMay]

... Diesel fuel isn't a supply and demand product...

Typo?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

... A few years ago when the Electric vehicle subsidies first got started, all or most of the wealthier people in my town got free electric golf carts, to pull behind their F-150’s to go golfing on the weekend.
$7,500 subsidy just about covers the cost of a golf cart I believe...

To be eligible for the federal credit, a vehicle must draw propulsion from a battery with at least four kilowatt hours of capacity; use an external source of energy to recharge the battery (thus the term plug-in); be used primarily on public streets, roads, and highways; have four wheels; meet applicable federal emission and clean air standards; and be used primarily in the U.S. It can be either fully electric or a plug-in electric/gasoline hybrid.
The IRS says electric golf carts do not qualify for the credit because they are primarily intended for off-road use.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Those huge government subsidies are what makes the case for an electric car, first your subsidized in buying it and can get the power for free, and oh by the way you don’t pay anything for road use taxes either.

My problem with all of that is that is the average taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy, and I think that’s wrong. The funny thing is that so many refuse to see that, they want to gloss over that, they are true believers.

In the US, the well-off already pay absurdly low taxes. What's your point?



(yes, the EV subsidy program has been kind to the well-off)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

In the US, the well-off already pay absurdly low taxes. What's your point?



(yes, the EV subsidy program has been kind to the well-off)

How do you figure?

Top 25%, earn 67% of income but pay 87% of taxes.
Bottom 50% pay 2.4% of taxes.

Somehow I fail to see how the bottom 50% are being hammered by their tax bill.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by GordMay

To be eligible for the federal credit, a vehicle must draw propulsion from a battery with at least four kilowatt hours of capacity; use an external source of energy to recharge the battery (thus the term plug-in); be used primarily on public streets, roads, and highways; have four wheels; meet applicable federal emission and clean air standards; and be used primarily in the U.S. It can be either fully electric or a plug-in electric/gasoline hybrid.
The IRS says electric golf carts do not qualify for the credit because they are primarily intended for off-road use.

Define "golf cart".

Small urban vehicles, re-purposed golf carts made street legal and never having been on a golf course would hold up. Also this assumes the IRS actually follows thru and checks on the tax credits.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by GordMay

To be eligible for the federal credit, a vehicle must draw propulsion from a battery with at least four kilowatt hours of capacity; use an external source of energy to recharge the battery (thus the term plug-in); be used primarily on public streets, roads, and highways; have four wheels; meet applicable federal emission and clean air standards; and be used primarily in the U.S. It can be either fully electric or a plug-in electric/gasoline hybrid.
The IRS says electric golf carts do not qualify for the credit because they are primarily intended for off-road use.

Their are electric vehicles that look identical to golf carts, are in fact golf carts but can be registered for on road use, I guess they have horns or something, you see them in Fl in Retirement villages.

Actually what happened in many instances was they were bought and sold if not the same day, then almost immediately.
That way I’d assume the person pretty much put $5,000 or so in their pocket courtesy of the taxpayer.
Now I’m sure that isn’t legal either, but I can also tell you that loop holes for everything exist and that’s why the Wealthy have a lawyer and CPA on call.

I watched Million dollar aircraft sit unused for a week, but there was paperwork indicating that they were leased, they were then exported as used aircraft so the taxes were much lower.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

In the US, the well-off already pay absurdly low taxes. What's your point?



(yes, the EV subsidy program has been kind to the well-off)

They actually have high tax rates, but for lack of a better term games are played so that they often pay little taxes, the business owns the Yacht and Jet etc. which may often be used for business purposes etc .

But the EV subsidy plainly subsidized the wealthy, and I don’t think they need subsidies myself.
Now hopefully I’m considered one of the evil wealthy, but I like to think I have a sense of morality, it’s why I Retired when I did, I couldn’t stomach what was going on in my company and when I’d raise my concerns, I would be looked at like a fool and told that it “Was just business”.
I paid sales tax on my boat for example but have a very liberal minded friend who did not, funny how he thinks the Wealthy should be taxed to death, but didn’t pay tax himself, but I’m sure he doesn’t consider it tax evasion, but tax avoidance

I have very little use for an automobile honestly and can’t ever see myself buying another new one, I have bought several new cars of course, but other than enjoying a new car smell, it’s tough to justify the depreciation of a new vehicle.

If you want electric and I can certainly see why you may, but look at the cost of used electrics, for some reason they depreciate tremendously.
I suspect it’s because the actual cost of the car is in the US, $7,500 less than sticker.
That may one day bite the poor slob who has to pay full price?
Has Tesla gotten their tax rebate or subsidy extended yet? I believe they should be about to run out?

I also believe that an Ev ought to have to pay the road use tax, and easy way would be to do so when the tag is renewed.

On edit, I believe and this may be Urban Legend but that Warren Buffet used to comment that his tax rate was less than his secretaries?