Help please! Dutch buying process/contract/survey

[richr]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sea trial is primarily for sails, rig, hull integrity and engine..
Lights etc can be tested on land by flicking a switch, toilet you just pour a bucket of water in the pan and flush, inlet you stick a hose in and turn on the water.. after opening the valve.

Thanks, I am sure it's a fair point and I don't need to go into the details. The principle is clear - the survey should be as exhaustive as possible (and if the loo gets tested that's great), the sea trial should then test what the on-land survey can't cover. In all cased the seller should be fixing whatever doesn't work, having identified zero defects to me in advance....right?

Again, all of which was in my offer letter agreed by the seller.

I don't know exactly what can and can't be done by the surveyor; I have never been an owner that's why I am hiring a professional advisor.

[richr]

Update: managed to get in touch directly with seller via his sailing website and he has sent me a very friendly email. We speak tomorrow and hopefully will fix everything the broker is failing to navigate.

The broker is unlikely to receive a Christmas card from me.

[Arthur Garfield]

Moving goal posts repeatedly is very bad sign

Eat your out of pocket costs & RUN away
They think you're married to this boat-So so many other better boats & better professional players out there

RUN

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by richr

Update: managed to get in touch directly with seller via his sailing website and he has sent me a very friendly email. We speak tomorrow and hopefully will fix everything the broker is failing to navigate.

The broker is unlikely to receive a Christmas card from me.

Good on you. Stay wary as to the terms of your contract and be sure to include in your terms more than enough time for completion of the survey [that is to say ask your chosen surveyor about their time schedule and then pad that period of time]. Having established direct contact with the owner you likely can reduce your contact with the broker, just cc the broker on correspondence and of course the broker will receive the commission if the sale goes through.

I strongly recommend that you seek a different third party person other than the seller's broker you are at odds with to be the escrow agent for the interest deposit. Do you have a buyer's broker involved, if so, let your broker be the escrow agent and route your offer through your buyer's broker.
In the alternative you can utilize a mutually agreed upon lawyer, preferrably a maritime lawyer. Another method of holding a buyer’s deposit includes both parties opening a joint bank account and having the buyer wire the deposit there; using an escrow service, such as a bank, to hold the buyer’s funds; Regardless of how the deposit is made, the buyer’s written offer or purchase agreement needs to have clear terms and conditions about how the sale is predicated and how the deposit is to be treated upon a party’s default. The escrow agent will require explicit instructions that must be signed by both parties, and will follow those instructions concerning the disbursement of escrowed funds. The escrow contract and instructions are separate from the offer contract and is between you the buyer, the seller and the escrow agent.

Most purchase agreements make an offer contingent upon a buyer’s personal inspection, survey and sea trial of the yacht. If any one of those items is unsatisfactory and the buyer notifies the seller within the contractual time period, then the escrow agent must immediately refund the buyer’s deposit.

With most failed transactions, litigation ensues to determine who breached the agreement and what becomes of the buyer’s deposit. If there is a conflict regarding who has defaulted, then an escrow agent should do one of two things: hold the deposit until he receives mutually-agreed-to written instructions signed by both parties, or lodge the deposit with the local court. Once the deposit is lodged with the government agency responsible for escrow account adjudication, or a court, the parties can fight over the deposit using attorneys.

Because the closing proceedings of most yacht transactions occur over a relatively brief amount of time compared with other business deals—within weeks from start to close—it’s essential to consider the legal significance of a deposit. Take a moment to understand what will happen to your deposit and ensure that it is being held in a secured escrow account.

And good luck.

[psk125]

Reminds me of another thread on CF about a Dutch broker refusing to release escrow for a boat that didn't pass muster on the survey. (Cant seem to find it now.) Boat was sold to someone else - don't know what happened after that. Dutch brokers seem to be quite wiley. Caveat emptor!

[richr]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Good on you. Stay wary as to the terms of your contract and be sure to include in your terms more than enough time for completion of the survey [that is to say ask your chosen surveyor about their time schedule and then pad that period of time]. Having established direct contact with the owner you likely can reduce your contact with the broker, just cc the broker on correspondence and of course the broker will receive the commission if the sale goes through.

I strongly recommend that you seek a different third party person other than the seller's broker you are at odds with to be the escrow agent for the interest deposit. Do you have a buyer's broker involved, if so, let your broker be the escrow agent and route your offer through your buyer's broker.
In the alternative you can utilize a mutually agreed upon lawyer, preferrably a maritime lawyer. Another method of holding a buyer’s deposit includes both parties opening a joint bank account and having the buyer wire the deposit there; using an escrow service, such as a bank, to hold the buyer’s funds; Regardless of how the deposit is made, the buyer’s written offer or purchase agreement needs to have clear terms and conditions about how the sale is predicated and how the deposit is to be treated upon a party’s default. The escrow agent will require explicit instructions that must be signed by both parties, and will follow those instructions concerning the disbursement of escrowed funds. The escrow contract and instructions are separate from the offer contract and is between you the buyer, the seller and the escrow agent.

Most purchase agreements make an offer contingent upon a buyer’s personal inspection, survey and sea trial of the yacht. If any one of those items is unsatisfactory and the buyer notifies the seller within the contractual time period, then the escrow agent must immediately refund the buyer’s deposit.

With most failed transactions, litigation ensues to determine who breached the agreement and what becomes of the buyer’s deposit. If there is a conflict regarding who has defaulted, then an escrow agent should do one of two things: hold the deposit until he receives mutually-agreed-to written instructions signed by both parties, or lodge the deposit with the local court. Once the deposit is lodged with the government agency responsible for escrow account adjudication, or a court, the parties can fight over the deposit using attorneys.

Because the closing proceedings of most yacht transactions occur over a relatively brief amount of time compared with other business deals—within weeks from start to close—it’s essential to consider the legal significance of a deposit. Take a moment to understand what will happen to your deposit and ensure that it is being held in a secured escrow account.

And good luck.

That's really useful, thanks

[Sojourner]

This tale makes me soo thankful that the broker representing the boat we bought was basically, ok, you like it? here's the seller, y'all deal with it and I'll handle deposits and contracts. cool? Michel Charpentier, really good guy for anyone looking around France for an Amel especially...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Montanan

You spend time and money for travel and surveying to discern which boats NOT TO BUY. Those are sunk costs [pun not intended] like water in your wake. Do not ever place value on funds spent, that money is no longer yours.

I agree that the rigging done by an amateur doesn't provide great confidence and as you indicated may fall foul of insurance expectations. That is not to say, amateurs can't do it right, but does make one less assured compared to a professional.

You seem to be talking yourself out of this transaction. Often your inner-voice is worth listening too.

All the best.

Awfully good advice. Lots of wisdom in this post.




Building on this -- I would suggest that the right thing to do is to get yourself mentally prepared to walk away.


Once you're really in the mood to walk, then write down your bottom line conditions for not walking.


THEN, clearly, absolutely clearly communicate those conditions to the seller and the broker. Tell them: "I am not pleased with how this has been doing. I am going to walk now unless x, y, z." Write the contract yourself, or modify the text of the contract you have been given, and include that with your message, saying "we've negotiated long enough -- this is my bottom line, take it or leave it."



They will either fall in line, or not, and if they don't, you're now at the stage when you do just cut your losses and move on.




These deals have different phases. One of those phases is when everyone is testing the water for different approaches and different terms. That's not the time to be giving "take it or leave it" statements. But later one, when everything has been discussed, you do have to identify all of the "deal breakers" from your point of view, and formulate your bottom line with regard to every one of them.





Some brokers will ruthlessly exploit signs of "sunk cost mentality" in the buyer -- the willingness to put up with anything out of reluctance to write off the sunk costs. Don't fall into that. You need to understand yourself, that you're ready to walk, before you can competently handle the last stage of negotiations.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

This tale makes me soo thankful that the broker representing the boat we bought was basically, ok, you like it? here's the seller, y'all deal with it and I'll handle deposits and contracts. cool? Michel Charpentier, really good guy for anyone looking around France for an Amel especially...

Brokers like that are not earning their keep, in my opinion. Why hire a broker at all, if you're going to do the deal yourself?


A good and skillful seller's broker will save the seller from the process of making the deal. He will act in the seller's interest, as he is paid to do, but he will recognize that the seller's interest is served by treating the buyer fairly and by carefully listening to and trying to accommodate his concerns. He will find and emphasize the mutual interests of buyers and sellers and find a reasonable compromise for those issues where their interests diverge.



You can tell when a good broker has been at work, because both seller and buyer leave the deal, pleased with it. And when it comes time for the buyer to sell the boat, he will hire the same broker he bought it through. This is the way it should work.



Of course theory and practice often diverge , as there is SO much temptation for brokers to take advantage of the inexperience of the buyer and seller just to make a deal, any deal, happen as quickly as possible and with the least investment possible of his own time, without regard for how well the deal works for either of the parties.



Nevertheless, there are a certain number of really good and really conscientious brokers in the world. They are worth their weight in gold.

[syPhilos]

Originally Posted by richr

We agreed price in principle before viewing

How can you agree on a price before viewing?

Originally Posted by richr

and the yacht was then not up to the high standard described by the broker.

It's the sellers broker. He's not going to list mold as a feature ...
That's why you go have a look before saying anything about the price range.

Jeez, I've walked away from boats after no more than a look inside from the cockpit

Originally Posted by richr

I have no reason to distrust the seller but I don't trust the broker an inch.

Yes, you do. He hired this broker, the broker is working for/with him.

Originally Posted by richr

What next? Do I sign and hope for the best? Or hold the line? Or give up?

There are so many boats for sale ... Why do you want this one so badly? You listed a number of issues with this boat - I'm pretty sure there are better finds out there.

The broker hit the jackpot with you, giving him little incentive to be more agreeable. The owner is taking care of that bit for him, and he's probably really happy the boat is sold

[richr]

Originally Posted by syPhilos

How can you agree on a price before viewing?



It's the sellers broker. He's not going to list mold as a feature ...
That's why you go have a look before saying anything about the price range.

Jeez, I've walked away from boats after no more than a look inside from the cockpit




Yes, you do. He hired this broker, the broker is working for/with him.



There are so many boats for sale ... Why do you want this one so badly? You listed a number of issues with this boat - I'm pretty sure there are better finds out there.

The broker hit the jackpot with you, giving him little incentive to be more agreeable. The owner is taking care of that bit for him, and he's probably really happy the boat is sold [emoji3]

Thanks, there's a number of reasons why this is (subject to survey) a good boat for us.

We agreed a price in principle based on not viewing, because I am in UK and the boat in Netherlands. I pushed the broker very hard for a fair and detailed description of the boat; I had him send me about a hundred specific photos. And he left out all the bad bits. It's all superficial and can be fixed.

I have been boat-hunting for six months; I don't bother travelling that far unless the broker indicates what is the price range. If I saw anything fundamentally wrong with the boat I would have pushed harder after the visit, but the superficial issues are all being dealt with.

So my question wasn't about the boat, the process followed up to now (which has, so far, obtained a satisfactory outcome other than proving the broker is untrustworthy). It was about how/whether to manage the next steps in the process when the broker is trying to make me write not just an unfair contract, but one that differs from what the seller and I already agreed; and one that (thanks to the useful advice posted from others, above) I have confirmed is not standard practice in Holland.

[syPhilos]

Originally Posted by richr

Thanks, there's a number of reasons why this is (subject to survey) a good boat for us.
We agreed a price in principle based on not viewing, because I am in UK and the boat in Netherlands.

Putting all your eggs in one basket isn't the best move, IMHO ...
There are so many boats available, I would have made a list of all interesting ones, then hopped in the car for a stay here and have a good look at all of them.

Then find a good surveyor (not as easy as it sounds!) and have him do an extensive survey on The Chosen One

If you haven't already: talk to Olav Cox, recommended earlier in this thread. And whatever you do: do not use a surveyor that works with the seller's broker but find your own, based on recommendations from other buyers.

[richr]

Originally Posted by richr

Thanks, there's a number of reasons why this is (subject to survey) a good boat for us.

We agreed a price in principle based on not viewing, because I am in UK and the boat in Netherlands. I pushed the broker very hard for a fair and detailed description of the boat; I had him send me about a hundred specific photos. And he left out all the bad bits. It's all superficial and can be fixed.

I have been boat-hunting for six months; I don't bother travelling that far unless the broker indicates what is the price range. If I saw anything fundamentally wrong with the boat I would have pushed harder after the visit, but the superficial issues are all being dealt with.

So my question wasn't about the boat, the process followed up to now (which has, so far, obtained a satisfactory outcome other than proving the broker is untrustworthy). It was about how/whether to manage the next steps in the process when the broker is trying to make me write not just an unfair contract, but one that differs from what the seller and I already agreed; and one that (thanks to the useful advice posted from others, above) I have confirmed is not standard practice in Holland.

I should have said; I don't think it's worth travelling based on the asking price, when in the current market I believe boats are typically going for 10-15 pc less, unless you get a pretty solid indication of flexibility, which effectively means you enter negotiation. I didn't even bother to view three boats because the broker basically admitted (after a certain amount of prodding from me) they were fundamentally overpriced and seller wouldn't budge an inch.

So in this case we agreed (over some weeks) a reduction that I believed (and still believe) commensurate with the description of a well-maintained boat with light wear and tear; no damages or defects. What I found so far was either acceptable wear and tear, or stuff that needs fixing (to meet the description) and the seller has agreed to fix. If there was anything worse or a refusal to fix, I was free to renegotiate or walk away. Still happy that was a reasonable process.

It's the next steps that are vexing me.

[richr]

Originally Posted by syPhilos

Putting all your eggs in one basket isn't the best move, IMHO ...
There are so many boats available, I would have made a list of all interesting ones, then hopped in the car for a stay here and have a good look at all of them.

Then find a good surveyor (not as easy as it sounds!) and have him do an extensive survey on The Chosen One [emoji3]

If you haven't already: talk to Olav Cox, recommended earlier in this thread. And whatever you do: do not use a surveyor that works with the seller's broker but find your own, based on recommendations from other buyers.

Thanks for that! Both good steers, I am in touch with Olav and as a start, he has also confirmed what I thought about articles 4 and 5 of HISWA.

[250224]

From the perspective of the broker maybe you are also 'quite complicated'? To send hundreds of photos, revise contracts and email correspondence also takes time (i.e. costs).

You said, that the boat is sound in principle, issues are superficial and got a price reduction. Maybe the broker is a bit afraid that you will never stop asking for discount?

If you were not owner before there might be the 'danger' that you are 'over-critical' for non-important stuff. With boats there always will be some (minor) parts that could be improved.

'Unfair contract' may also be seen from the other side. What if you walk away from the contract for 'non-reasons'? Maybe the broker senses the need to be careful there?

But asking for opinion and getting in contact with Olav sounds good. Hope things settle in such a way that all involved parties are happy at last.