Heaving to- Fore reaching- Lying Ahull

[johnn33]

I think you will appreciate the experiences of others here
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heavy-Weath.../dp/1472923197
John

[roland stockham]

One thing to bear in mind is that when people talk about using sails either to run off or hove too in severe weather they would not be thinking 'standard' sails. Possibly a heavy cruising main with a very small area on the third reef, definitely not you furling genoa showing a corner. Traditionally you would use a purpose built storm jib, orange, roped all round, triple seamed and maybe 10% of the fore-triangle area. This would pair with a trisail sheeted to both quarters and with the boom lashed. Not been there myself, the most \i have seen is 55kn at see but have had 60+ at anchor and in the mountains and the power is unbelievable. I was once lifted off my feet while carrying a 40lb pack and dumped 50yrds away over the crest of a ridge!!

[psp2psp2]

Look for Lin & Larry Pardy’s excellent book “STORM TACTICS” - everything you might ever want to know about heaving to VS lying ahull VS running before. And may you never have to do either!

[MicHughV]

I have the original version of "Heavy Weather Sailing" written originally by Adlard Coles, I don't know how many times I've read that book...but a lot.....

[sailingchiro]

I have read many books on this subject and still don't know exactly what I would do. The more I read, the less I know! I have a parachute, trysail, and drogue. I have sailed out of tropical storms, no hurricane.
My initial response is to put the eye of the storm on my port side (in Northern Hemisphere), put up sails (storm jib, trysail?, whatever we can handle) and let her blow me away from the storm on the weaker side (west, north?). If getting too close to land, find a little hidey hole and throw all my ground tackle out.

I think the least amount of pressure on the vessel and her crew is key. I have read a parachute puts a lot of strain on deck. Heaving to is a dance to keep vessel fairly close to the wind and how much pressure does it put the rig and steering gear. Moving backwards seems counter intuitive to the rudder structure. The Pardey's use the slick method, I have tried it, apparently not easy on a cat or me.
Remember, it isn't the wind, it the huge breaking wave that breaks boats.
Montessior, I think, recommended surfing down the huge wave at an angle without any resistance (ie. drogue) and stay out of the trough but rather sail as fast as possible. Just avoid getting tripped up. All of this is easy sitting in front of my computer.
I have nothing to prove, my goal is to get away from it asap. Let the wind blow me away.

[TomThumb]

You've asked for opinions from those with experience and you can see the varied responses, because as others have said, 'it depends' on a range of factors.

My own, beyond heavy weather offshore and trans-ocean include the 1984 Sydney Hobart in a 55ft yacht, (23 of 46 finishers out a fleet of 176) and five years as mate and captain of a 150 square rigger including a cyclone.

So, I'd offer the view that you do need to find out how your particular boat behaves. On a windy swelly day, try heaving to with minimal cloth, try different trim and sizes between headsail and main and observe steerage, and motion. The add that to the sea, swell and sea-room equation of a evere storm upwards.

As a general rule, I'll run before a storm, trying to avoid the 'dangerous' semicircle. Note these switch between hemispheres.

Then how a boat behaves relative to the sea tends to dictate what happens next. If I need to lie head to wind to crest steep, large waves, both power to provide wash over the rudder and a drogue or heavy lines forward have worked. If I can run with the sea but am concerned about broaching, drogues or lines aft have worked. If pooping is probable (based on my ability to manage speed and steerage way to allow the waves to pass but not cause surfing beyond control) then the amount of drogue is usually the question.

I won't lie a hull nor heave to if the sea and swell is the major factor. If it's the passing of extreme winds and the fetch means the swell isn't the biggest problem, then I have done so.

I'm also an advocate of a set of storm sails in any boat. In the 240t, 150 ft square rigger, with a storm jib and trysail about the size a 30ft yacht would use, I was doing 8 kts. They are useful because:
- They are smaller than anything else you have and can't unfurl themselves, so they provide surprisingly good propulsion.
- They can be rigged on a partially dismasted rig. The trysail doesn't need the boom.
- You can go from sailing to hove to easily and adjust the pressure between the backed headsail and trysail to maintain some headway.

No one pours oil on water anymore (or anything else that will affect surface tension and calm waves not swell), the only variant of this is that in warships we'll try to create a lee 'slick' to allow safer launch of our boats or to protect a liferaft or MOB during a rescue. And as for the 'slick' created by your boat making leeway as you lie a-hull or hove to...does bugger all for you when the big wave comes.

[barnakiel]

You painted your question with such a broad brush.

So let me give you some broad brush response.

Sailing in a hurricane. Does not imply the wind is +64kts.

A hurricane is a system. Winds will vary depending on what time of day it is, what stage the system is in, how fast it moves ahead, where you are positioned, if there is any land obstacle near, etc. etc. etc.

Above some wind force, sails will not be used. Because above some wind force, ANY piece of canvas becomes a hazard. How much wind is this "some wind"? I do not know. But I am sending you to Skip Novak for details of how much wind a well prepared high latitudes boat can take before you throw the towel in. Some of Skip's know how will be translate'able to cats but not all of it. Also mind the size of his vessel and the level of his competence.

Now the other thing. The Kamasutra of heavy weather sailing. The 'positions'.

You are specifically interested in cats. Cats have some specifics that will require specific storm attitudes of their drivers. They have no ballast and have two hulls connected with a bridge. The bridge can get very stressed if the boat receives a major punch. Cats are light and tend to have shallow or lifting keel blades (daggerboards). So (some, - the ones with lifting AND LIFTED daggerboards) cats will slide off when hit, which is good for the boat (less so for the crew perhaps). Due to their beam and lightness and lack of deep keels, cats are less likely to get tossed upside down by the sea.

I understand many cat owners prefer running with drogues as the most extreme case. But at times there are lands in the lee and you cannot run. At this point you will elect between the being ahull / hove / fore-reaching. You will pick up one that works in your boat.

You may run out of juice at a point. You will then just do what you can, and then hunker down and hope. This is a very dangerous moment. As if any activity were better than no activity. Hard to explain why but apparently proven with countless storm stories as published in books and blogs.


Last: it is the sea state, not the wind force, that breaks you in the end.



Doh. Some digest.


My points:


- have proper storm sails (VERY small sails, in very good condition),
- I said sails, not sail,
- have drogues (can be improvised too),

- remain active and ADJUST as weather evolves,
- use a position adequate for sea state, wind force, and ocean to run.


Bueno. Take care.


A-ha. You are a cat guy: if you elected position is running before it, make sure your cat is not one of those with flimsy sliding door in the cockpit. You may / will get a bad breaker invade the area at a point. A boat meant to take on hurricanes should not be built like a caravan home.


Also mind you want the cockpit to have a huge drain of a form. It cannot be of the 'swimming pool' style that is found on some boats that claim ' a safe enclosed cockpit' - unless the holes that let water out are ' size.



b.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

Remember, it isn't the wind, it the huge breaking wave that breaks boats.
Montessior, I think, recommended surfing down the huge wave at an angle without any resistance (ie. drogue) and stay out of the trough but rather sail as fast as possible. Just avoid getting tripped up.

I can't remember what style of boat Moitessier was sailing, but a long keel cruising design over about 40' does not have quick enough response to make it easy to keep stern to the seas without a drogue. And steering w/o a drogue in those conditions for any length of time is exhausting. Breaking waves will be coming from different angles, and let one of those spin the strern nearly broad side and it doesn't give you time to get the boat back downwind before the next big one. Surfing, leave that to the surfers and the big fully crewed racing machines.

[Davie J.]

Heaving to with a properly sized parachute works extremely well. Most will agree that the boat will survive, even after the captain has given up. Considering that, the sea parachute, hove to with a storm sail and "handkerchief" jib, will give almost a comfortable ride. And the slick discussed above will be increased with the chute. It worked very well for me in 60 kn winds and I believe it would do so under even worse conditions.

[MicHughV]

something else to consider...

my 60 knot plus experience was on a steel boat....on one of the transom cleats I had attached about 150' x 5/8" nylon anchor line to which I had tied a rolled up storm jib to act as a drogue of sorts. It slowed my boat speed down to around 5 knots....and I was under bare poles...

I'm here to tell you, that the 5/8" line, which has a breaking strength of about 9,000 lbs...was stretched bar tout....like a steel rod.....later when I pulled my homemade drogue back aboard, the knot that I used to tie the storm jib to the rode was fused together....I had to cut it loose with a knife...

the first point I'd like to make is the 150' length. This just happened to be the length of that rode. Sometimes the "drogue would be on the wave behind me, sometimes on the 2nd wave behind me....there were moments where the line went slack and and then whipped tight. Even though 150' of 5/8" nylon has quite a bit of stretch to it...I think it was too short a line. Heavier line, say 3/4" will be stronger, but not as stretchy, I'm not sure which is best...

my second point, there were several times, when I thought something was going to break. My transom cleat was made up from 1" s/s pipe using two legs which were solidly welded to the deck.......

I question whether a standard cleat thru-bolted to a fiberglass deck .....even with a backing plate would have held..

The strain on a towing warp is enormous.....we were also concerned, that should the line snap, it might come whipping back.

Finally, I say I could steer the boat, but that was not quite the case. When a wave broke, or a crest would roll up behind me, it would want to slew my boat around, broadside to the wave, the best I could do was to " correct" my course back to around 60-90 degrees to the wave...

I offer this as what I did.....right...wrong...it is what I did.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Even though 150' of 5/8" nylon has quite a bit of stretch to it...I think it was too short a line. Heavier line, say 3/4" will be stronger, but not as stretchy, I'm not sure which is best...

For the most part, size for strength, then add length to get more stretch unless you can work up an alternate way to add more stretch.



Something like a smaller line (like 1/2" if the main line is 3/4") parallel to the main line at the boat end might help. Tie it all together so the main line has some slack in it and the smaller line can stretch up to a limited point. Such as the main line going tight with 4 feet of stretch in a 50 foot section of smaller line. That should avoid loading the smaller line to the point of failure, but will add more stretch than the heavy main line alone can provide.

[Saleen411]

Thank you for all the responses. I really appreciate the time you all took to write.

A few thoughts....I didn't take into account that some of the heaving to or fore reaching experiences would be done with purpose built storm sails. I will have to do some research into storm sails for a catamaran where stress on the rig is a concern.

And YES Barnakiel, I'm a cat guy....so you are right about some of the issues. I have to laugh because the cat I'm looking to buy does resemble a caravan, has a flimsy sliding door and even a small swimming pool up front, (with GREAT BIG scuppers) LOL. I definitely wouldn't want to have a major pooping incident flooding my salon! I've read about a cat or 2 taking a huge damaging greenie on the beam or aft, but was from what was guessed to be rogue waves. Sorry, I digress...

I did ask some very general questions and didn't want to limit any discussion to a specific type of sailboat, though I would love to hear more cat experiences.

Sea anchors and drogues...GREAT topic and widely discussed before. I will definitely want to have both and would practice to become proficient at deploying and retrieving them. From what I've been reading, a drogue ( given sea room) is what's used the most on cats. Also, from what I've read, having extra strong ( usually highly modified) attachment points is critical....STRONG, like being able to hang your yacht from the cleats kind of strong.

Again, thank you all for sharing. I'm interested in reading a lot more.

[MicHughV]

well, I don't carry any "storm gear" on my boat, I have enuff clutter as it is, so just use what is available...

I did try towing the line in a bight....this had the advantage of being tied to two cleats, but it did nothing to slow the boat...so that idea was nixed....

I also tried towing some anchors tied to some fenders...this too, did nothing....another idea nixed...

I also considered streaming the line from the bow, thinking that the pointy end of the boat would cleave the wave, but I never did this, determining that my best course of action was to maintain some steerageway.
A big sea anchor might make pointing the bow into a wave a possibility, as you would want a rock solid situation, so your bow would always face the wave, but as I did not have this, this possibility never arose.

If I were ever to be in this situation again, I would do more or less the same thing....ie, maintain steerage way.....but I had a lot of searoom, with limited searoom, I would have to come up with something else.

These storms don't appear out of nowhere.....I had some time to reflect on my best course of action....that boat was ketch rigged....I had this idea that the windage from the mizzen mast, boom, sail, etc, provided enuff wind resistance to act as a lever of sorts to want to slew the boat parallel to the wave face...that was the toughest part, as I did not want to slide directly down the wave, nor find myself parallel to the wave, fearing a broach or roll over, so I tried to maintain an angle to the wave. During the day, we managed quite well, but at night, we could not see anything....on top of everything else, it was raining sideways and pitch black....we had to "listen" for the wave and pretty much do everything by "feel"...difficult to convey here in words...wave height...my best guess was about 15-18'......with breaking crests....we were only two people on the boat...exhaustion was a major factor.

Interestingly, after it was all over, I had been blown off course by about 100 miles....so having some searoom was definitely in my favor as I did have to worry about hitting anything..

Again, I provide this only as a point of view to what I did, it worked for me, may not for others.

[barnakiel]

Storm sails are easy to study. There are fine tables to start with.

Many sailors are surprised that a proper storm sail does not need to be very heavy. One factor being how very small a storm sail is (it will be smaller than your deepest reef, and many ocean going crews opt for 3 reef points in the main (see Skip's point on this, below), or else use the 'Scandinavian' method (two reefs, but 2nd is very deep).


---



The attachment points for anything that you TOW must be not just super beefy and backed - they also need to be designed so that when they go, they will not take the structure away. This calls for special design mindset.


(One Polish Mini racer failed to imagine this only to find his stern ripped off together with very well attached rudders ...).



So, not only strong and well backed, but also to work as the last fuse. Boat damaged OK, boat sinking not OK.



And the ability to pull the boat by her fittings is NOT a story. In fact, all older Amels could be hoisted by their chainplates.

Again, this is in fact not such a big force, if you think that our boat displaces 4t but a single top is calculated at 6t BL.

So it is way more about smart design than huge thickness or extra weight. All good news for your catamaran boat.


It is also a lot about being prepared and pre-visualised for any scenario, also for the worst one. In an attempt to never need this knowledge.



VERY strong wind, very light boat:
https://cfd.northsails.com/sailing/w...rm-sailing.jpg

Skip Novak's ideas and demos:
https://www.yachtingworld.com/video/...ues-part-1-668

Skip's insights are, in fact, priceless. He will sail where others will hope to survive.

b.

[MicHughV]

I should note, that we wearing dive goggles during this time, as there as simply no way to look into the wind and rain otherwise, my friend on the boat wore eye glasses so this was also helping him.......ha, we also had foulies on, but they didn't do much good either....but some food for thought....