Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Your logic is flawed. By the time he adds back in the $50k-$60k needed for repairs, he’ll be somewhere back up near the original purchase price in 1985 dollars and at least 50% underwater on his 2019 investment.

41 year old boats don’t appreciate in value.

You brought up a new 1985 boat for comparison. The only way to do that is to present value its price to today's dollars, or back value what OP is spending today to 1985.

$100k in 1985 is worth about $400k today. So OP is spending about 25% for it ie $110k in today's dollars, nowhere near the price of the new 1985 boat. This is already assuming a very conservative 4% over 34 years.

Whether or not OP is paying too much for a 41 year old boat is another question and not one that I intend to address.

[sailorboy1]

While I think it crazy, the OP wants to do so should just do it. Makes no difference to me what boat people chose.

[Chotu]

It’s interesting because boats like the one he is buying only came on the market as a flood in those years of the 70s 80s. So there are plenty of them out there. It only makes natural sense for these boats to start changing hands three and five times now. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the boat. They are extremely solidly built. The quality of all materials and fittings is better back then then it is in say, the year 2000. The stainless was better. It didn’t corrode. People used to care about the quality of the product. And try to build the best quality. Now they are building to a price and within budget. Most things were over built. They were built to last more than a lifetime.

If your goal is to have a boat that will safely carry you around the world, it doesn’t need to be the latest fashion. One of these boats will surely do it.

Certainly some of the expendable stuff will need to be replaced. And there is probably some pretty suspect wiring from previous owners. But once that stuff is cleaned up and you understand the boat inside and out, you are in a better place than if you bought a new boat. Because realistically, even buying a 2019 Boat, you still are going to have a project boat.

With my opinion said, I think you are looking at this in exactly the right way.

All boats require a lot of work. Even a brand new one. And not everything is about money. Sometimes it’s about having the best boat. Not the best resale value.

If the boat is continuously cared for, it can last 100 years.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

Questions:
Those who have undertaken such a project were you glad you did or did you wish you hadn't?
If you passed on the idea what factors went into the decision?
What would you consider absolute deal-killers?
What some of the factors I should take into account in making my decision?
What is the conventional wisdom about this?

The fact you are on this forum means you can discount most "conventional wisdom," at least the way the world looks at it...

And -- It sounds like you have worthy advice from the customary (often conflicting) vectors -- It is one thing to pick up a “classic” boat that needs some maintenance (new halyards, bedding fittings, restitching sails and techno-gizmo upgrades if that is your thing, etc.), and quite another to acquire a multi-year project that needs structural repair, propulsion overhauls and the like. Unless you like a project more than sailing, avoid the latter – although some cash-strapped skippers have done just that with occasional success. Fact: none of us need a recreational boat, let alone must go cruising – so at the end of the day it must serve your wishes and purposes. If this is the boat (style, fit, finish, vintage or pedigree, etc., if that is important to the skipper), and whatever tasks and upgrades you anticipate are within your skill-set, then the answer is reasonably apparent (for instance, electricity and I don’t like each other, so I avoid anything much beyond replacing lightbulbs, but will tackle wood and glass projects with enthusiasm – your mix of skills will be your own).

The specifics you mention look like the kind of undertaking that would seriously attract me (other than size), but that doesn't mean it is good advice...

[BenBowSirocco]

Many good words here as usual.

Another thing to think about, the Alajuela has a bit of a following, many people who have owned and sailed these boats find them to be awesome sailing boats with good performance (modern delivery/charter captain Jon Kretschmer ranks it highly if I remember correctly). So the classic plastic you chose is certainly a good one. And while I can agree that it will probably not appreciate in value, you can probably rely that it wont depreciate much, as its already de-valued for its age. The 2000 will depreciate.

I am wrapping up a refit on a 1981 boat and I would say that I think it would be very difficult (read: impossible) to get a boat in the built quality of this one, with every system in new condition, for anywhere near as low as the money I have invested (under 40K). But I did 98% of the labor and its not laid out like a modern boat.

As said before: do you want to work on your boat, or sail your boat? Knowing how to repair your boat is a necessity, knowing how to build it out is a decision made based upon your temperance. For me it was based on skills/money as well. I do not make enough money to offset the amount saved by doing the labor myself. If you have a good paying job you do not totally dislike, it may make more sense to hire someone else to do the labor.

There is a trap though, you buy a fixer upper, it sucks up all your time and patients and then you sell it at a loss and lose your sailing dream. Just being aware that its their is a big part of preventing its course.

[gallatin1988]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

I have a slightly different take on a refit boat. I took it as an instalment payment purchase. So I didnt have to come up with that big chunk off cash up front or go into debt for.

I think this is a great way to look at it.

As others have mentioned, another aspect of this of is the control one has in quality, cost, particular upgrades, and when to quit and just go sailing vs. having to live with someone else's decisions.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Your logic is flawed. By the time he adds back in the $50k-$60k needed for repairs, he’ll be somewhere back up near the original purchase price in 1985 dollars and at least 50% underwater on his 2019 investment.

41 year old boats don’t appreciate in value.

41 year old boats maintain their value, as 20 year old boats continue to depreciate, and start needing rejuvenation or replacement of most of their major systems.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

41 year old boats maintain their value, as 20 year old boats continue to depreciate, and start needing rejuvenation or replacement of most of their major systems.

Completely agree with this.
My 40+ year old boat was completely depreciated when I bought it.
The 18yo boat that I could have bought should ordinarily be expected to depreciate more than I'm spending on the refit of the older boat (plus the likely repair/replace work on the 18yo boat/equipment what will ordinarily be more than on a boat recently completely refitted).
I incidentally have a few aircraft...same logic applies with those.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Your logic is flawed. By the time he adds back in the $50k-$60k needed for repairs, he’ll be somewhere back up near the original purchase price in 1985 dollars and at least 50% underwater on his 2019 investment.

41 year old boats don’t appreciate in value.

Note above.
Sure deals of the century are out there. I think it should be assumed that boat buyers are smart enough to look for them. This thread I think is more about what happens when you don't find a great deal.

[er9]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

I am currently looking at a 1978 38' double-ended cutter with an excellent pedigree. Many sisterships have many significant....

Thanks,
Sam

I took on a project boat and couldn't be happier. My 1980 boat was pretty much exactly what you described and in the end will cost me about the same amount to update/upgrade/and re-furbished. personally im not doing it with any sort of future return on investment in mindand i plan to keep this boat for a very long time.

The deal breaker for me would have been structural problems or major fiberglass problems...everything else is easily repairable with time and money.

I think as long as someone takes on a project boat for the right reasons its very much worth it. for me those reasons are wanting to get a quick and complete real world education on how to repair absolutely anything on a boat. the other main reason to me is wanting to be 100% self reliant. i think the right project boat is the best education so long as your willing to spend the time and money...

i think it helps if your someone that loves working on boats as much as you do sailing them because the boat can be un-sailable for long periods of time. it also helps if you have friends with sailboats so you can go with them to satisfy that need to be out on the water.

[BenBowSirocco]

Thank you dcstrng for keeping this on track. I got involved in the discussion and did not answer the original posters questions at all.

Originally Posted by gallatin1988 View Post
Questions:
Those who have undertaken such a project were you glad you did or did you wish you hadn't?
-Glad I did it. I feel I have a like new boat which I know intimately, that meets mine and my wife's particular needs at a cost that works for us.
If you passed on the idea what factors went into the decision?
-I would pass on the idea if I had the finances to afford a semi-custom boat 5 years old or younger.
What would you consider absolute deal-killers?
-Bulkhead replacement. Large scale deck core rot. An ugly boat.
What some of the factors I should take into account in making my decision?
-Does she make your heart sing?
Is there a DIY yard nearby you have access to? Do their work hours correspond with your work schedule?
What type of policies does your current marina have about DIY boat work? Do they charge for contractor access?
Will your significant other (if applicable) become despondent if you spend every hour of free time with the project?
Are there sailing yacht facilities nearby that will help out a DIY? How far a drive?
How long is the DIY work season in your current location?
Focus on your current strengths and skill sets, try to exploit them. Consider the added cost (and benefit) of hiring out things that are outside your confidence.

One last idea: find a build out blog that has the hours spent per project logged on it. Think about that carefully and honestly.

[thomm225]

Just to put things into proper perspective, this boat could probably be had for $30,000 and shouldn't need a lot to make it cruise ready.

The price is a bit high because it's up near Annapolis, MD

It's a 1981 Bristol 35.5

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/77203

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-355

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes willingness to spend time and money on the "purchasing quest" is a factor, and maybe examples of **that** specific boat are truly rare.

In my case for example I think a Nor'sea 27 would be ideal, but even if I had the ready cash - I don't - all five examples I've come across are thousands of miles away.

There's a Nor'sea 27 in the slip across from me that hasn't been moved in 8 years......probably more.

I peaked into one of the ports years ago and the interior is pretty much bare, but the exterior appears normal for a boat that hasn't been taken care of for that many years. (maybe more) It has a Big Ole Bruce Anchor in one of it's bow platform slots. It has room for two anchors. This little boat is built on a big boat scale

Should I ask the marina folks about it? Or I can PM you the slip number and marina (and maybe take a photo)

If all else fails, we could probably do a go fund me thing here on CF so we can get you some real world sailing experience ……...

[El Pinguino]

Photos of the OP's prospective boat would be nice...

Not my style of boat but if it is what the OP wants for the long term I really see no problem.

It doesn't sound like a 'project' boat to me... even fitting a new engine isn't a 'project'... its just a job...

I once replaced one of my water tanks ( 200 litre... leaking on one of the welds ).... while the boat was in the water and 'in service'.... took the old tank out one weekend... put the new tank in the following weekend....

This does not sound like a 'project' boat.... 'project' boats are found in paddocks, in chook sheds, or down the skid row end of lesser quality boat yards.

I say go for it.

[gallatin1988]

Here's few pictures:
The first one is five yearsa old, when the current owner was launching after having the boat trucked to Texas.
The second is the saloon looking forward
The third is the stern
The forth is the top of a water tank
The fifth is the mast step
The sixth is the deck forward of the mast

[Cheechako]

It seems you have a pretty logical approach.
I would say I haven't been that happy in the boats I've done that needed major refit. They came out good but man it's a lot of work and I always felt "I should be sailing". As well as sometimes, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". Plan on two times as many issues as you can find at survey.

"Ready to go " are usually fixer uppers too. It's just hard to say. But if you are getting into engine replacement etc, you may end up needing tanks also and other things that owners don't usually do unless it breaks. Every boat, even the one "ready to go" doesn't seem to be without a lot of maintenance.

Is that an Alajuela 38? (sp?) That and the other similar 38 (Ingrid 38?)from that time period have sold pretty cheap historically from my memory. I wouldn't pay much for one that needs a lot. One of the two is noted for being pretty tender. I think the Alajuela is the one. Something like 27-30% ballast ratio. Not sure how the price of a Baba 38-40 compares but probably a lot better boat.

Potential deal killers for me: (or maybe if there are more than two?)
-Engine shot (but if easy to get out... hmmm)
-Tanks need replaced (this can be a nightmare on some boats)
-more than a few blisters
-Cored hull
-teak decks (maybe)
-Sails/rig need replaced/rebuilt (unless the price is according low)
-evidence of toerail leaks