Buy a boat without a survey? or even seeing it?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

OK, so thanks to all for the advice ranging from "go for it" to "you are a fool" and some well considered and comprehensively reasoned advice in between. Thanks to all who took the time to post great, qualified advice. Based on this I have requested quotes from 2 surveyors based in Greece. Onwards and upwards.

here is what I would do:

Lefkas is full of british folks! Why not ask in british yachting forums if someone is currently in Lefkas and could have a close look with a good camera. That would cost you a few drinks.


Otherwise you could ask a local surveyor if he could have a first look. I would not do a full survey right away, just ask them to walk around the boat for an hour with their camera, and provide you the raw photos and their opinion if the boat is worth continuing further (full survey, seatrial, flights, etc).


First choice would be Kev Whittle, a british surveyor, AFAIK a liveaboard cruising & operating from Lefkas, so no travel cost. Contact details here at noonsite
There are other british surveyors that either regularly visit the area or stay there for summer season: Leon Jennings, John Crompton, Mark Smith, and maybe a few more. All easy to find on the internet


Pls note: I never used any of them, only asked for a quote. My deal went bust shortly before survey date, it was a divorce fraud where the greek wife tried to sell her US husband's toy while he was in the US

Back then I also had contact with one native greek "surveyor" but I guess its enough to say that I would not contract him for free.
Ask for a sample survey!


Having said all that: I bought boats with and without survey.
My last two cats -although way more expensive than what you are looking at- I bought without external support due to season and region. Its nearly impossible to find english or german speaking surveyors in winter in the med (at least outside spain, unless paying huge travel costs for someone flying in from their home country). But I do know my way around, I know how to fi a lot of things, and I'm not afraid to ask for advice if in doubt.

But I would never consider buying without close personal inspection both in and out of the water and a decent seatrial.

[elandra65]

Yes you would be crazy. I have only done it once and regretted it and the boat was very cheap. Surely you can find a few days and an airfare.

[captstu]

Take some time to watch the TV series, "Married at first sight." Most matched couples are divorced by 6 weeks, nearly all at one year.

Boats are very similar, you are unlikely to love it in 6 months unless you are quite sure when you buy it.

[Cadence]

Best of luck!

[Deltasailor]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

Am I crazy to even consider this?. Not an ex charter but a respected blue water cruiser and liveaboard with loads of recent upgrades inc recent engine, new standing rigging, keel bolts, windlass, access to recent survey, cruising history, maintenance records.

Boat is in the Med, we are in North America, cruising season is closing in in the med and we are on a timeline, need to buy the boat and start our adventure.

Hoping for a quick transaction and leveraging an unconditional offer to get a good price.

Thoughts?

Where is the boat? Try to find a surveyor in the area and ask for a basic survey. Should not cost too much. If you like what he/she says jump on a plane and check it out then if a lot of dosh get a survey. The season finishes at the end of October in the Med but local sailing goes on much longer. If the one you want turns out to be a dog there are always yachts for sale at the end of the season. The owners don't want to pay the marina fees over the winter.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

OK, so thanks to all for the advice ranging from "go for it" to "you are a fool" and some well considered and comprehensively reasoned advice in between. Thanks to all who took the time to post great, qualified advice. Based on this I have requested quotes from 2 surveyors based in Greece. Onwards and upwards.

Having just had a 'look' at the boat that you are considering I would be buying a ticket to Greece, take a look, get a survey if you wish,make an offer..... she presents well..

I have no problem with her having new keel bolts.... she is the same age as my boat.... I they changed my bolts 2 years ago when I they dropped the keel to have it shot blasted.... seemed silly not to change the bolts at the same time... the old ones looked fine.

[Kim Klaka]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

Am I crazy to even consider this?. Not an ex charter but a respected blue water cruiser and liveaboard with loads of recent upgrades inc recent engine, new standing rigging, keel bolts, windlass, access to recent survey, cruising history, maintenance records.

Boat is in the Med, we are in North America, cruising season is closing in in the med and we are on a timeline, need to buy the boat and start our adventure.

Hoping for a quick transaction and leveraging an unconditional offer to get a good price.

Thoughts?

Why on earth would you? A survey costs maybe 1-2% of asking price, cheaper than a single repair. If you can't afford the survey then you can't afford the boat. Besides, you will probably recover the cost and more by using the defects found as a negotiating position. Get a local surveyor to survey the boat. If you don't know of one (don't use the broker's recommendation for obvious reasons!) contact either Royal Institution of Naval Architects (RINA) or Yacht Brokers, Designers and Surveyors Association (YBDSA), both UK based with good European coverage. Google them, or flick through the small ads of a European sailing magazine ( e.g. Yachting Monthly) and look for someone with MRINA or MYBDSA credentials.
A survey is certainly not a cast iron guarantee of condition assessment, but it is the closest you well get unless you are a very experienced sailor with good engineering background and time to do the survey yourself. Even then, an unbiased pair of eyes can be better.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by wryanddry

Am I crazy to even consider this?. Not an ex charter but a respected blue water cruiser and liveaboard with loads of recent upgrades inc recent engine, new standing rigging, keel bolts, windlass, access to recent survey, cruising history, maintenance records.

Boat is in the Med, we are in North America, cruising season is closing in in the med and we are on a timeline, need to buy the boat and start our adventure.

Hoping for a quick transaction and leveraging an unconditional offer to get a good price.

Thoughts?

As is often said...the most dangerous thing on a cruising boat is a schedule...and you are setting one up before you even get started.

Also, a survey is an effective negotiating tool worth WAY more than the modest cost of a survey.

Why would the owner sell for less with no survey? Something he doesn't want discovered comes to mind.

[ingrid75]

You want to buy a boat unseen and jump aboard and start cruising? If you get down on your knees and beg for trouble, you will probably get it.

[MoorOrLess]

They say owning a boat is like standing in the shower ripping up $100 notes.
Unseen and no survey, you might be in for a long shower.

[Captsteve53]

Try this web page : https://www.iims.org.uk/

All the International Institute of Marine Surveyors are held to a high standard and must have liability insurance and must meet yearly standards of inspections/training etc, there web site allows you to choose from numerous surveyors world wide/country wide/region wide.


Cheers Steve (MIIMS/Lloyd's Maritime)

[messias]

I bought mine unseen... and drove 1100 Km to tow it home.
But was DIRT cheap, nothing like yours (almost a giveaway, as the former owner needed to get rid of it "yesterday". And he was his only owner, from new)... and in the end I had to change absolutely nothing!
I did go through a complete "cosmetic" refit and changed the most important fittings, just because my initial budget allowed for it.

I was lucky!

As for insurance, if you only want 3rd party, nobody will ask you for a survey.

[barbjgladney]

Don't know what you're paying for that boat, but unless it is dirt cheap why would you spend all that money and not pay for a survey?
I know two incidents where people bought yachts in another country site unseen: one was American couple buying a yacht in New Zealand, one was an Aussie couple buying a yacht in Turkey. In both incidents they got burned. One of the yachts (in NZ) had osmosis that have been covered up. It ended up costing them a fortune at end of the day. The Aussie couple found that there had been apparent wrecks that had been covered over with thin fiberglass that caused it not to be seaworthy. They put six months of repair work into the boat in Turkey and ended up selling it just to get rid of it.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by Guy

You don't need a survey, only people who don't know this stuff need a survey.

I couldn't disagree more. I have well over 45 years experience in the marine industry. I have owned, lived on and/or been responsible for the operation and maintenance of boats from 16' to 65', wood, fiberglass and steel. I have a broad working knowledge of electronics, engines, hydraulics, rigging, rust, delamination, electricals, generators, etc. I recently was asked to look at a boat here on the East Coast for a friend on the West Coast who was considering buying it and wanted my opinion. I looked at the boat, found multiple problems and reported back. I was then asked to recommend a local marine surveyor to take a closer look which I did. I accompanied the surveyor during his survey. He found WAY more stuff than I had and I thought I was very thorough. There's a big difference between being able to fix a problem and being able to see one coming. Would you know to check the deck plates on a steel vessel by hitting them with a rubber mallet and knowing by the sound whether or not there was problematic rust beneath? I didn't. Surveyors, good ones, are trained professionals and can save you tons of money. In this case $450,000 as my friend decided not to buy the boat.

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by wandering rober

Do you intend to insure the boat , survey required !

I have just been burned a few times lately... Last year I had my personal boat surveyed and the inspection was not very well done. This year I was put in charge to get a surveyor to inspect three vessel, workboats and I did not want to influence the inspection so I took a back seat until all was done. The report was awfull. When I questioned why numerous things were not on the report, I was answered that he could not see everything... and most of the stuff I questioned was visible big time. I need another survey for another boat and I honestly do not know how to approach the next surveyor and how to deal with him. I need advice how to negotiate the next survey... Roger