Bluewater sailing - how much knowledge & experience is enough?

[ArtM]

Well, checking the OP Jack is going with two other hands on board, including an "experienced crew member".

I think the only think Jack needs to know before he leaves is whether he and his wife get seasick, and that is his hired hand is not a psycho

The OP also said that Jack planning to spend some time in the Caribbean learning... that part of the story confused me into believing that he was going to come across at least one Pina Colada bar... and I'm sure he'll find plenty of coconuts while "island hopping to New Zealand"

[msponer]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

And I sometimes think the most important thing of all is to cultivate the strength of character to make decisions to do what is safe rather than what is easy, even if that means serious hardship

I feel this is the most important thing.

Being grounded, firmly connected to reality, is also very helpful, and is easily preferable to reams of nerdy sailing knowledge and trivia.

I'm not sure what the best words are to describe this aspect of how people think, their 'connection to reality'. Although our modern landlubber life doesn't need it, I feel it's necessary to do well while sailing, and it can be cultivated. Just like strength of character, though character is probably easier to fake.

[Wannabe-007]

Originally Posted by msponer

I'm not sure what the best words are to describe this aspect of how people think...

I actually almost had something like this (although not nearly as nicely communicated) in my list, but it fell off... I had simply called it 'Discipline'.

I spent some time in aviation where the same thing was drummed in... There can be an awful lot of pressures compelling you to take the people and vessel into situations that are beyond an acceptable level of risk.
I never have worked out a way to deal with this apart from sheer discipline.

edit: Having said this, it is still vital imho, to have the knowledge and experience first, otherwise, you don't even know when you're putting everything in peril! ...and you don't know how to avoid it.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Wannabe-007

I actually almost had something like this (although not nearly as nicely communicated) in my list, but it fell off... I had simply called it 'Discipline'.

I spent some time in aviation where the same thing was drummed in... There can be an awful lot of pressures compelling you to take the people and vessel into situations that are beyond an acceptable level of risk.
I never have worked out a way to deal with this apart from sheer discipline.

edit: Having said this, it is still vital imho, to have the knowledge and experience first, otherwise, you don't even know when you're putting everything in peril! ...and you don't know how to avoid it.

Wannebe, I agree with virtually everything you wrote re: prerequisites to Blue Water. On the other hand - if we all wait until we have acquired all the knowledge and skills (some of which may perhaps not be readily acquired locally) - most of us will never get anywhere.

Some things you will just end up learning "on the job".

Discipline? Ability to make the tough decisions? Not take the easy way out? Call this what you want, in the business world we tend to call it leadership. Not everyone can become a leader. You can learn it - you do not have to be born with it, although some have a natural talent.

I suspect that the most important skill is the ability to recognize when the boat is in real danger and when it is "merely" going to be uncomfortable.

And yes, you should be able to either fix or sail without any of the gadgets on board.

A fellow where I work sailed 3500 NM back in the 70's on a Maxi 9 meter with a broken mast and a jury rig. No problems except it was sort of slow

[captain58sailin]

One thing that I don't see mentioned, is, in the day before EPIRBs, GPSes, if someone ended up in trouble, and they were not self sufficient enough, would not survive the experience. And their fate would be unknown. Now these same people are rescued only to be crucified in sailing forums.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Now these same people are rescued only to be crucified in sailing forums.

That's what we are best at!

[Cheechako]

There are plenty of people in all walks of life with a lot of credentials who cant really "get 'er done". Just sayin'.... that having experience, a skippers licence, or etc really doesnt mean much. competency is a very personal/individual thing....

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

One thing that I don't see mentioned, is, in the day before EPIRBs, GPSes, if someone ended up in trouble, and they were not self sufficient enough, would not survive the experience. And their fate would be unknown. Now these same people are rescued only to be crucified in sailing forums.

The gene pool is definitely getting weaker and weaker.....

[David_Old_Jersey]

Have never been accross an ocean - but I figure asking yerself the damned good questions in this thread would be a good move. Even if the answers are less than ideal.....

I would include:-

1) being comfortable that you could fix (or bodge!) the major systems that power the boat and stop it sinking and allow you to eat and drink whilst you are out of reach of someone else / West Marine.....at least enough to be pretty damned sure you could get to the other side, even if not to exact point intended. I am excepting calamitous events like getting eaten by a whale etc........therefore not so much about being able to fix "everything", just being comfortable that you can survive well enough without whatever you can't fix at least long enough to arrive somewhere (whether you enjoy it is another thing!)........albeit the longer term price of not knowing a lot may well be the end of your voyaging because of the cost of buying in fixes and / or the PITA from finding folks to do so - but that IMO seperate from being ready to go Bluewater.

2) being mentally prepared so that when (albeit occassionally) you experiance the full effect of sitting in a washing machine! and that it often goes on for quite a while!...........that you don't automatically think that the EOTW has arrived and that the only "safe" way out is pressing the big red button and then scrambling up the side of a rusty freighter in a F10 (or 4?!)......what the exact answer will be will vary, but as long as the boat is sound (no duct tape on anything important) a more than decent enough chance of being able to laugh about the experiance later.......how you gain that level of being prepared is down to each. But some things best not to come as a complete surprise.........and certainly pre any ocean voyage I would practice heaving to in both calm and rough weather, can be very surprising how different life onboard becomes.....climb up the side of a rusty freighter in a gale? or put the kettle on and have a kip? - I know which feels "safer" to me.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Wannabe-007

Bluewater sailing... how much experience & knowledge is enough?

The question seems to imply that Jack and/or Jill will be in command of the vessel. There's no law that says it has to happen that way.

I started out by racing, and basically raced in 'round-the-buoys races until I was skilled enough to stand watch on an offshore race. My first dozen+ offshore races were on other people's boats. The first few times I served as master of a vessel, I was delivering the boat home from a race. For me, that ended up being more fun than the race itself had been.

By the time I got my own boat, I'd already been there and back.

[robert sailor]

Yup prior to all this new hi tec gear things were different. The thought about being able to call someone and be rescued never even crossed my mind. I guess the first reason was I had nothing to call anybody on, LOL. Being self sufficient is a very cool experience and it grows the more your in that enviorment. You learn that given enough time you can damn near fix anything.
The only weather information I had was high seas weather that was broadcast on the same band as the time ticks for your watch and I had a receiver only that was portable. I used to have tracing paper which I put over the planning chart and marked the highs and lows each day and that info with observations of the clouds and barometer were all the weather info I needed.
When we did our next voyage we had a SSB and a weather fax plus a Pactor modem and we thought that cruising had become easier than falling off a log. We just purchased our last cruising boat and there is so much hi tec stuff on it that I need to retrain myself just to figure out how to work it all.
Times change and I guess thats good, you no longer need a lot of the basic skills that were required years ago. This next generation has been raised on computers and can't even comprehend not having one or what to do if the one you have quits working. Most boats have several GPS's so I guess it won't really be an issue.
The seas are still the same, nothing changed there. I guess I like the new stuff as much as anybody.

[Khagan1227]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

2) being mentally prepared so that when (albeit occassionally) you experiance the full effect of sitting in a washing machine! and that it often goes on for quite a while!

Occasionally a frontloading washing machine, complete with wash and rise cycles.

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

One thing that I don't see mentioned, is, in the day before EPIRBs, GPSes, if someone ended up in trouble, and they were not self sufficient enough, would not survive the experience. And their fate would be unknown. Now these same people are rescued only to be crucified in sailing forums.

And, at least in this part of the world, both those priceless services are still provided entirely free of charge. How's that for good value? Motto: Go NOW!

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

.... Being self sufficient is a very cool experience ....

This needs to be said, too .... it's fashionable to dismiss appeals to self sufficiency as some sort of trogolodyte and/or Luddite rant, but in most cases I suspect it's motivated, at least in part, by the writer wanting others to experience a bit of the same deep fulfilment and satisfaction.

A largely unrelated point: I'm not saying it's necessary to go looking for ways to make it hard for yourself (eg omitting to fit an engine, freezer, GPS, etc...)

If you sail long enough and far enough, you'll probably find they'll come looking for you !

[captain58sailin]

Navigation 101: If you sail long enough or far enough, you come to the other side. Then have a beer.