Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

[engele]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Did you encounter situations that changed your mind and why so ? Dave

Yes. A man was murdered in an anchorage not far away and sunk on his anchor chain. No one knows the details. Another woman was raped in a crowded anchorage. A family was held hostage in a place we had been only months earlier. Several boats were robbed in an anchorage we were anchored in while we were there. The list goes on.

The fact is cruising is dangerous. Going offshore is dangerous. We have things that we can do to reduce the danger. Many boats carry an EPIRB. Many people use satellite WX. Some carry a storm anchor. Some have firearms.

The truth is guns are everywhere. You see them all across Central America and the Caribbean. In many places where they are illegal you will find they are more common than in the states. I've seen guns fired off of the back of motor yachts in marinas in Central America by coked up and drunk boat boys about fourteen years old. If you are afraid of guns and hide from them you will not see them. If you ask about them in a dangerous area you will find many more than you ever expected.

There are times when a series drouge, emergency beacon, shotgun, or liferaft can be the difference between life and death. It's just another tool that some may want in the boat. Experience has thought me that I prefer to have all of the tools I might need to stay safe aboard. If it's legal, I will deal with the hassle. I see no reason to dissuade anyone else from doing the same.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by engele

Yes. A man was murdered in an anchorage not far away and sunk on his anchor chain. No one knows the details. Another woman was raped in a crowded anchorage. A family was held hostage in a place we had been only months earlier. Several boats were robbed in an anchorage we were anchored in while we were there. The list goes on.

The fact is cruising is dangerous. Going offshore is dangerous. We have things that we can do to reduce the danger. Many boats carry an EPIRB. Many people use satellite WX. Some carry a storm anchor. Some have firearms.

The truth is guns are everywhere. You see them all across Central America and the Caribbean. In many places where they are illegal you will find they are more common than in the states. I've seen guns fired off of the back of motor yachts in marinas in Central America by coked up and drunk boat boys about fourteen years old. If you are afraid of guns and hide from them you will not see them. If you ask about them in a dangerous area you will find many more than you ever expected.

There are times when a series drouge, emergency beacon, shotgun, or liferaft can be the difference between life and death. It's just another tool that some may want in the boat. Experience has thought me that I prefer to have all of the tools I might need to stay safe aboard. If it's legal, I will deal with the hassle. I see no reason to dissuade anyone else from doing the same.

Thanks for a factual report based on personal experience. As you suggest, weapons are a tool just like any other. They can be mis-used by morons, just like cars, knifes, computers, etc. etc. etc. I understand the anti-gun zealot's position, even if it seems irrational. Unfortunately, and as Jhnmcntsh's list shows, you can't really provide for your family's protection legally in many jurisdictions, so each person has to decide whether or not to visit places where effective self defense is illegal, or break the law once they are there. The castle defense doesn't do you much good if the only legal means to provide that defense is based on your skill in wielding a steak knife against a machete.

[johnmcntsh]

Originally Posted by engele

Yes. A man was murdered in an anchorage not far away and sunk on his anchor chain. No one knows the details. Another woman was raped in a crowded anchorage. A family was held hostage in a place we had been only months earlier. Several boats were robbed in an anchorage we were anchored in while we were there. The list goes on.

The fact is cruising is dangerous. Going offshore is dangerous. We have things that we can do to reduce the danger. Many boats carry an EPIRB. Many people use satellite WX. Some carry a storm anchor. Some have firearms.

The truth is guns are everywhere. You see them all across Central America and the Caribbean. In many places where they are illegal you will find they are more common than in the states. I've seen guns fired off of the back of motor yachts in marinas in Central America by coked up and drunk boat boys about fourteen years old. If you are afraid of guns and hide from them you will not see them. If you ask about them in a dangerous area you will find many more than you ever expected.

There are times when a series drouge, emergency beacon, shotgun, or liferaft can be the difference between life and death. It's just another tool that some may want in the boat. Experience has thought me that I prefer to have all of the tools I might need to stay safe aboard. If it's legal, I will deal with the hassle. I see no reason to dissuade anyone else from doing the same.

Gun politics describes a category of politics (international, national, regional, or local) involving and/or addressing firearms that fall into the category of small arms. Generally the topic addresses safety issues and ideologies related to firearms through criminal and noncriminal use. Gun politics encompasses the rules and regulations that define the use, ownership, and distribution of firearms as well as the financial issues such a taxation on their manufacture or import/export tariffs.
Firearm legislation and policy vary greatly around the world. For example, some countries such as South Korea, China, the United Kingdom and Germany, have strict limits on gun possession by private citizens while others, such as Yemen, Switzerland, the Czech Republic, and the United States, allow for relatively greater access

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by johnmcntsh

Gun politics describes a category of politics (international, national, regional, or local) involving and/or addressing firearms that fall into the category of small arms. Generally the topic addresses safety issues and ideologies related to firearms through criminal and noncriminal use. Gun politics encompasses the rules and regulations that define the use, ownership, and distribution of firearms as well as the financial issues such a taxation on their manufacture or import/export tariffs.
Firearm legislation and policy vary greatly around the world. For example, some countries such as South Korea, China, the United Kingdom and Germany, have strict limits on gun possession by private citizens while others, such as Yemen, Switzerland, the Czech Republic, and the United States, allow for relatively greater access

The homicide rates in countries with strict gun control and those without illustrate that the key word in the analysis is "politics". Virtually no evidence exists that strict gun laws change underlying murder rates, but to each nation, its own. For cruisers, all this means is that there are places where effective self defense isn't easy and these places aren't necessarily safer, so you have to accept that risk when visiting.

[johnmcntsh]

Originally Posted by Delfin

The homicide rates in countries with strict gun control and those without illustrate that the key word in the analysis is "politics". Virtually no evidence exists that strict gun laws change underlying murder rates, but to each nation, its own. For cruisers, all this means is that there are places where effective self defense isn't easy and these places aren't necessarily safer, so you have to accept that risk when visiting.

Exactly!!!

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Delfin

I understand the anti-gun zealot's position, even if it seems irrational.

That could very well point to why these threads can get so heated. Reliable data involving weapons being used by cruisers against aggressive attacks are so vanishing small that and the variables so huge mean that it's completely impossible to come to any rational conclusion based on real world data.
So people fall back on what "seems" to make sense based on the culture they grew up in.
Perhaps posts are often more an indication of culturally conditioned attitudes towards firearms in general than a reasoned response to data available. Both pro and anti.

Possibly just as contentious...

But from maybe from spending too much time in the seedier bars it seems fairly certain that a small proportion of the few incidents of violence towards cruisers comes from them messing with the wrong people. Not all cruisers are whiter than white.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by minaret

True enough about the nature of thieves, but I think you may be confused as to the number of murderers out there. For US 2010, 16,259 homicides (that succeeded). But you will note the number of ER visits for assault is over 2 million! People kill other people every single day. And people are attacked by other people far more often than that. I think the guy who said opinions on this subject change quickly with personal experience hit the nail on the head.

FASTSTATS - Homicide

Opinions change , but not necessarily harden.

Dave

[johnmcntsh]

In the world, here is noon sites list of issues in 2012. Please note the number of dinghy thefts.

Piracy Reports 2012 — Noonsite

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Delfin

The homicide rates in countries with strict gun control and those without illustrate that the key word in the analysis is "politics". Virtually no evidence exists that strict gun laws change underlying murder rates, but to each nation, its own. For cruisers, all this means is that there are places where effective self defense isn't easy and these places aren't necessarily safer, so you have to accept that risk when visiting.

Well the statistics would prove that statement incorrect. The UN statistics in 2012 give intentional homicides in the UK at 1.2 /100000 and 4.7/100000 in the US. If one limits it to gun crime the ratio widens to nearly 1to 10


While one cannot make a direct causal relationship. It is reasonable to suggest that in the UK the lack of widespread availability has contributed to a far lower incidence of homicide by gun ( UK 2011 was 0.04/100000)


One cannot compare within a country because no country has really changed its gun laws significantly to allow a before and after analysis. Closet might be Australia which demonstrated a 18% reduction in homicides after the introduction of tighter controls
Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by conachair

That could very well point to why these threads can get so heated. Reliable data involving weapons being used by cruisers against aggressive attacks are so vanishing small that and the variables so huge mean that it's completely impossible to come to any rational conclusion based on real world data.
So people fall back on what "seems" to make sense based on the culture they grew up in.
Perhaps posts are often more an indication of culturally conditioned attitudes towards firearms in general than a reasoned response to data available. Both pro and anti.

Possibly just as contentious...

But from maybe from spending too much time in the seedier bars it seems fairly certain that a small proportion of the few incidents of violence towards cruisers comes from them messing with the wrong people. Not all cruisers are whiter than white.

The debate gets skewed because when people talk about the issues of defence on boats in foreign lands and the issues of deploying, using , and the consequences of using firearms in a conflict, they are labelled anti gun ( as if that's a bad thing by the way lol). Which as a holder of many firearms , makes people like me laugh. No more then I see the need to be armed when cycling around , I don't see the need to be armed when cruising , which is in general an extremely safe activity. That's doesn't make me anti gun , it's just I never want to find myself tempted to use a firearm in anger, or misplaced anger ( and to deal with the consequences, especially in a foreign country)

I have , as I said before , sailed with firearms onboard and many times without, and given the hassles , I now know for sure which option I'd use. I see no need or desire to visit unsafe areas , doubly so with my loved ones onboard and I find it strange in the extreme that people sail into known unsafe areas and then wonder why they are attacked.
Dave

[Aussiesuede]

Originally Posted by johnmcntsh

In the world, here is noon sites list of issues in 2012. Please note the number of dinghy thefts.

Piracy Reports 2012 — Noonsite

Surely that can't be a comprehensive list? In a world with billions of people and thousands of cruisers, a violent incidents list will be much more than a page? Because that list makes cruising seem safer than going inside an East Oakland High School.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Aussiesuede

Surely that can't be a comprehensive list? In a world with billions of people and thousands of cruisers, a violent incidents list will be much more than a page? Because that list makes cruising seem safer than going inside an East Oakland High School.

What a strange viewpoint , it's almost like you want cruising to be dangerous , in general cruising is very safe , to the point insurance companies don't even regard it as an activity sport.

Dave

[Aussiesuede]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What a strange viewpoint , it's almost like you want cruising to be dangerous , in general cruising is very safe , to the point insurance companies don't even regard it as an activity sport.

Dave

Not really, the point is 800 13-17 year olds make it in and out of McClymonds High School unscathed everyday in an environment with a MUCH higher real world threat of violence. It's as I stated prior, response and preparation should be proportional to actual threat. And comparatively, those 13-17 year olds are at a MUCH greater risk than any of we cruisers. Evil can happen anywhere anytime, but let's not be ruled by paranoia to an unrealistic extent.

But if one is unfortunate enough to be overcome with paranoia, perhaps safer endeavors might be more advisable?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Aussiesuede

Not really, the point is 800 13-17 year olds make it in and out of McClymonds High School unscathed everyday in an environment with a MUCH higher real world threat of violence. It's as I stated prior, response and preparation should be proportional to actual threat. And comparatively, those 13-17 year olds are at a MUCH greater risk than any of we cruisers. Evil can happen anywhere anytime, but let's not be ruled by paranoia to an unrealistic extent.

But if one is unfortunate enough to be overcome with paranoia, perhaps safer endeavors might be more advisable?

Exactly right. The number of serious attacks on cruisers is infinitesimally small, usually heightened by instant communication, and sometimes used by people to raise very unfounded fears. The truth is that it's a very very safe activity and one should leave ones paranoia at home.

Dave

[Aussiesuede]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Exactly right. The number of serious attacks on cruisers is infinitesimally small, usually heightened by instant communication, and sometimes used by people to raise very unfounded fears. The truth is that it's a very very safe activity and one should leave ones paranoia at home.

Dave

I don't want to belittle the basic fear of those who feel the need to be armed to achieve a feeling of safety because I've seen firsthand just how real the fear can be. One of my best friends is so afflicted and it's heartbreaking to know that he can't comfortably navigate through daily life unarmed. I have no right to try to force him to, in essence, walk around in a state akin to you or I being asked to walk about naked, since that's how exposed he feels when unarmed. Just because I'm comfortable enough in the world to not feel the need to be armed doesn't mean everyone else is. I truly have sympathy for those who aren't as lucky.