Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[athene]

Originally Posted by jckb

Sounds just like arrivals in popular North European harbours!

Think Peter Port, Yarmouth IOW, Salcombe, Darmouth!

Ah, but with an important difference. Assuming you're an EU-registered yacht, you're pounced on not for the right to be there but for the facilities provided. I can think of very few ports of call in Greece that provide anything to compare with the facilities of the harbours you mention. All those harbours provide the full spectrum, including free anchoring, tying up to mooring buoys and alongside berthing with water and electricity.

I don't think any EU skipper (and that's my own perspective on this) would object to this new tax if it were intended for reinvestment in the Greek harbour infrastructure - God knows it needs it!

[FilBrown]

This is a clip from a news story that recently appeared.

Cruising sailors in Greece will be hit with a new tax of up to 400 euros a year.The imminent tax will affect everyone sailing in Greek waters and is all but imposed following a vote in the Greek Parliament on 21 November.
The Cruising Association (CA) has announced that the law has been voted on and accepted and looks set to be implemented as soon as it is published in a government gazette.The new tax means all boats over 7m used for leisure activities in Greece will have to pay up.
This includes commercial and charter boats, and day excursion boats licensed to carry fewer than 49 passengers, including those plying trade to other countries.Boat owners with craft more than 7m and less than 12m long will have to pay between 200 and 400 euros a year to sail in Greek waters. But boats over 12m face a tax of 100 euros per metre per year, with a discount scheme available if boat owners pay for one month at a time while afloat in Greek waters at 10 euros per metre per month, or 30% off if they pay for a full year in advance. This is still to be clarified and confirmed.Boats visiting Greece en route to Turkey, Croatia or Italy will be the hardest hit. Although in the minority of those affected by the new tax, the Greek authorities realise some cruising boat owners may consider leaving or avoiding Greece.
The most vulnerable group are liveaboards with boats over 12m, who keep their boats on the water all year and are on a tight budget. No tax is payable if the boat is ashore for a full year.The CA, based in London's Docklands, has been monitoring the situation in Greece as it has almost 1,500 members sailing throughout the islands.CA member Jim Baerselman, who has sailed in Greek waters for more than 30 years, said this significant tax could put many people off cruising in Greece.
It is understood that the tax is payable on entry to Greek waters and is valid only for that calendar year, which would mean anyone wintering in Greece would have to pay two years' tax. But boats over 12m only need to pay monthly.Implementation of the tax could possibly still be postponed or halted, but Mr Baerselman feels it is unlikely to be changed substantially.The new tax regime will not become law officially until it is published, but this is expected to take place in the next few weeks.

Can anybody confirm this story?

[bbowers2004]

This is talked about extensively on another thread.

[Seaworthy Lass]

A new thread was commenced on this topic 20 minutes ago. I have merged the two threads.

[Saltyhog]

This is really unfortunate. It seems the folks there have really not learned a thing from their recent failures. We were looking forward to spending some time in Greece. It was one of the main reasons we're even considering going to the Med. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll skip the Med all-together.

[Buena Vista]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

This is really unfortunate. It seems the folks there have really not learned a thing from their recent failures. We were looking forward to spending some time in Greece. It was one of the main reasons we're even considering going to the Med. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll skip the Med all-together.

Hey Saltydog, don't give up on the Med just because a cash strapped Greece is imposing a tax, the extra tax is disappointing but not a deal breaker. Greece is a long way from being the jewel in the crown as far as Med cruising is concerned anyway, there's lots more to see.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Saltyhog

This is really unfortunate. It seems the folks there have really not learned a thing from their recent failures. We were looking forward to spending some time in Greece. It was one of the main reasons we're even considering going to the Med. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll skip the Med all-together.

You'd skip the med because of say a tax! I mean. even if you stayed for 2 months on a 14 metre boat you'd pay 140 euros a month. That's. not a lot taken in isolation.

Of course if the idea spreads !

Dave

[jckb]

Can anybody confirm this story?

Yes. The British Cruising Association (CA) has a copy of the the law as presented to the Greek Parliament. It's in Greek, and the CA has a simple translation. The translation is adequate to form the conclusions you will see on Public Home Page | CA (look under the "Hot Topics and Latest News" section, and click on the "here" link)

The Cruising Association is obtaining a better translation, and will update that news item as further clarifications are received. Keep your eye on it.

I am personally working with representatives from other Cruising organisations (French, Swedish, German at the moment) and we're keeping each other informed of developments.

All organisations appreciate the anger of that cruising folk feel when costs suddenly rise - and they're caught in the net. As far as we can see at the moment, if the law stands as it is, no boat already in Greece will be forced to pay more than €400 than their current budget, and that will give them a year's cruising in Greece. Everyone has the option of moving to other countries if the further costs are too onerous.

However, these extra costs have to be weighed against those you'll pay in Croatia (entry fees, sojourn tax, high cost of quaysides and mooring fields in popular destinations), the hassle of dealing with black and grey water disposal in Turkey and it's entry and exit costs, and the high cost of services throughout in the Western Med. These are value for money judgements, different for each boat.

Now, my personal evaluation.

I doubt that, in the long run, these taxes would significantly reduce the amount of boats Cruising in Greece. I can see that people who have boats over 12m, who have been living aboard all year, will be embarrassed by this tax. These are a small minority. They will individually do their sums and decide whether to move on or not. Their choice.

JimB

[beneteau-500]

Saltyhog, please tell me what they haven't learnt.

4 yrs ago i was against this tax and that was through my own ignorance that i didnt understand fully ( and i have lived part time on Naxos for 20yrs ) or did not just want to see what value it would bring but i say now well done to the greek minsters for pushing ahead with this this tax will not drive away boaters only those frugal ones and those who have in the past entered greek waters and not checked in and then sailed out will be caught out this time as new patrol boats have and will be ordered and what my friends tell me here in naxos the navy is more likely to be used along side coast guard

whilst the new cruising law is now law it still has to be ratified into the 2014/15 Budget and wont be implemented until this is completed - this thurs/ frid is what they are hoping for as i understand it at the moment

[Alenka]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

Saltyhog, please tell me what they haven't learnt.

4 yrs ago i was against this tax and that was through my own ignorance that i didnt understand fully ( and i have lived part time on Naxos for 20yrs ) or did not just want to see what value it would bring but i say now well done to the greek minsters for pushing ahead with this this tax will not drive away boaters only those frugal ones and those who have in the past entered greek waters and not checked in and then sailed out will be caught out this time as new patrol boats have and will be ordered and what my friends tell me here in naxos the navy is more likely to be used along side coast guard

whilst the new cruising law is now law it still has to be ratified into the 2014/15 Budget and wont be implemented until this is completed - this thurs/ frid is what they are hoping for as i understand it at the moment

Well this is how it will affect me and ultimately the Greeks.

Being on a fixed pension I won't be staying on for an extra three weeks in October to let friends have a free sail with me. I wouldn't think of asking them for money to pay the tax (bad manners) and I ain't subsidising them!

That means the Greek tavernas and tourist industry will miss out on four people spending money for three weeks.

I doubt the money raised in this tax will go anywhere to solving any problem or into making the facilities better - it will probably cost more to implement than it will raise.

[beneteau-500]

well Firstly i agree you wont see any benefits not for 10 yrs at least but you will see some and like right now in naxos port works are being carried out through taxes raised this yr for once Alenka ( see Naxos island Greece | Webcams | Information about Naxos > Cyclades Islands web cams )I am 54 and retired i dont get a pension not for another 12 yrs but i planned ahead and ok i set up contingency funds for things like this happening or for other unforeseen costs. as for liveaboards i would doubt it counts for more than 1% of the total number of boats in greece and the figure would be more likely to be .01% and in a very very very small way we boaters from other parts of the world are to blame for some of this tax evasion in a very very tiny way when we have had work done on our boats and paid cash to the greek man for doing it

My personnel view is whilst i love the greek islands and the people of the Islands yes they are at fault for the mess but i think now that this has happened in 7 to 10 yrs i think greece will be even a better place to come and sail

[athene]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

... this tax will not drive away boaters only those frugal ones and those who have in the past entered greek waters and not checked in and then sailed out will be caught out this time as new patrol boats have and will be ordered and what my friends tell me here in naxos the navy is more likely to be used along side coast guard

Only time will tell if you're right. One thing is for sure - Greece is going to lose its reputation as a relaxed, laid back, 'anything goes' sort of place, which is its attraction for most cruisers. Once stories get around of yachts arriving in Greek anchorages only to be pounced on by 'new patrol boats' or navy or coast guard vessels, I think the country's reputation is going to get a little tarnished.

Most cruisers have been willing to tolerate scruffy harbours with spalling concrete quays, rusty or missing mooring rings and bottom obstructions that can foul your anchor etc because - quite simply - it's cheap. Add a new cruising tax to existing charges - plus harbour mooring fees that have grown significantly in recent years - and a lot of cruisers will have second thoughts. Moreover, I'm afraid I don't share your optimism about the funds raised by this new tax being ploughed back into harbour improvements.

I'm not especially frugal; indeed, I retired four years earlier than you did, since work was getting in the way of cruising. But I still make a value for money judgement, and I'm not sure that hanging on my anchor in a rising wind with novice charterers dragging all around me (a far from unusual Greek harbour experience!) isn't making Croatia an increasingly attractive (if admittedly more expensive) alternative. So, maybe it isn't just the frugal ones that will go, because others can afford to move but simply don't choose to stay.

[athene]

On reflection, I actually think we may all be wrong. I suspect it's the frugal ones that might stay - simply because Greece will still be cheaper to cruise than most of its neighbours (including Turkey). Since they have limited budgets, they'll just have to cut down on discretionary spending to afford the new tax. So, it'll be the taverna owners, shop proprietors and other leisure interests serving the cruising market that will suffer.

I wonder what their chances are of a bailout from the money raised by the new tax?

[beneteau-500]

Well i know a lot of people will jump on top of me on this one but i hope the money raised on the cruising tax is " Not " spent on marina facilities on the greek islands but on long term marina berths instead if facilities are to be improved on the Islands i believe that the charter companies charter boat owners should contribute to this as 90 % of the yachts that turn up to an Island marina are charter yachts and should not Receive discounts etc and i will give you a good example of this If any one has been to Santorini You will Know what a dump of a marina Vikilhda is but when the charter yachts moor up there they pay only one third of the cost of the marina fee this yr a friend who was doing skippered charter work from Santorini to mykonos all summer was only paying 12 euros a nite in santorini where as i same size boat was paying 41.59 euros a nite and when you get a free berth like in Ios And poros and Kythonos yachties stay for days especially in Ios I do know for fact that the port Authorities on Ios would like the council to charge yachties for berthing but because they dont the port Authorities cant collect port fees and taxes not even the ferry companies get charged there but where a council does charge for berthing then port fees and tax's are due but this has not been done on many of the Islands except for syros and Symi and about 3 others which has vigorously all ways collected port fees and for this i think we will see a big change next yr for these type of tax's as well

[AndytheSailor]

Although I am not in the vicinity at the moment I am interested to here from liveaboards in Greek waters what they propose to do when the Greek government impose the new leisure tax on boats in Greek waters.
Will you pay up or leave?

Andy