The end game: What is the future of travel between contained and endemic countries?

[DanCan]

Wow, antivaxers! Let me vomit.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Wow, antivaxers! Let me vomit.

I am rather surprised at that statement, especially after your logical comments about communist China and their lies.

I am not an anti-vaxer. At the same time I think it is good to question things, especially things that are new and have no long term studies. Many, if not most, vaccines are safe, however there is much that we don't know.

For years, plastic bottles were assumed to be safe, then people started noticing issues with PBA. Now many manufactures use BPS in lieu of BPA,. The problem is that now we found out it may be worse than BPA.

The comment about gulf war syndrome from the vaccine forced upon our troops is spot on. We know for a fact that the main ingredient is a factor in Gulf War Syndrome. It was forced upon us despite it being rushed, having unknown effects, and being of questionable efficacy.

Why would anyone think this will definitely be different? Again, a vaccine may be the answer, but we don't know. One or more of the vaccines being worked upon may be safe over the long run, but again, we don't know.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by TigerPaws

Hum... You mean those vaccines that were given to the U.S. troops before the Gulf War? Those same vaccines that gave tens of thousands of service men Gulf War Syndrome?

You are more than welcome to take every vaccine available but like the lead up to the Gulf War there were those of us who recognized the vaccine was likely unsafe and we bribed (a time honored tradition) the corpsman/nurse (typically $500.00 USD) to mark in our records that we received the jab.

If and I use the word if that becomes a requirement to travel then once again I will pay the bribe.

You of course are welcome to take the bill gates quantum dots marker (mark of the beast?) if you like.

I suspected you were a tinfoil hat kinda guy from your earlier post, this proves it. We can only hope that you will get awarded your Darwin prize before you can harm more than yourself.

[Steve stolz]

Humans pooped , ruined our home [ earth ] She is showing us who really Rules. Hang on tight!

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

I suspected you were a tinfoil hat kinda guy from your earlier post, this proves it. We can only hope that you will get awarded your Darwin prize before you can harm more than yourself.

While I don't know what his earlier comments were, this comment is quite valid. Most vaccines are safe, but that does not alter the fact that there is much we don't know, especially when things are rushed. We had a good number of our guys who are affected to various degrees with Gulf War Syndrome and we now know that the rushed and unproved vaccines for nerve gas and anthrax are a contributing if not primary factor.

As far as a Darwin Award for this, it is unlikely. The mortality rate for Covid19 is pretty low if one has no prior conditions. Even for those who have preexisting conditions, the rate varies and most will recover.

[Larry Florida]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

Countries have been good about closing borders and listing the reasons why they did so. The information that we currently lack is what are their plans to open their borders.

Yesterday, Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan and Singapore all had less than 10 deaths. These neighboring countries surely could safely soon open their borders to each other. When and how?

I am looking for specific news articles and government plans.

Normally I would be in The Philippines and SEA this time of year. International arrivals were closed off in March. Every island has also isolated itself from the neighboring islands. No inter island travel by boat or plane at the moment. Many Filipino workers are stuck in southern cebu as the boat to their home in Negros is closed. Have a friend "stuck" on Bantayan with his Filipina. No cases on Bantayan so life is safe for him and Bantayan is hard to beat.

International arrivals in the Philippines will most likely remain suspended until domestic travel opens up. For me that means better luck next year.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Larry Florida

Normally I would be in The Philippines and SEA this time of year. International arrivals were closed off in March. Every island has also isolated itself from the neighboring islands. No inter island travel by boat or plane at the moment. Many Filipino workers are stuck in southern cebu as the boat to their home in Negros is closed. Have a friend "stuck" on Bantayan with his Filipina. No cases on Bantayan so life is safe for him and Bantayan is hard to beat.

International arrivals in the Philippines will most likely remain suspended until domestic travel opens up. For me that means better luck next year.

Interesting. Is there any commercial traffic between islands or governmental/medical travel between islands?

[Montanan]

Harsh Reality Check Time:

To the OP, so you are a Yank desiring a 10 day holiday in Australia. That is to say, your desired travel is totally for non-essential purposes.

Not going to happen under current travel restrictions. When borders begin to open the travel will very likely be limited to essential purposes, with the scope of what is essential being narrowly defined at first and slowly expanded to broader purposes. One should anticipate that non-essential travel will not be allowed until herd immunity is realized and / or effective vaccines have been developed and deployed and neither of those are going to happen in 2020. IMO, perhaps by the end of 2021 if things go optimistically.

As to future travel, when it becomes permitted to any extent, do anticipate and fully expect that it will be permitted only based on pre-issued visas, which visas will be carefully vetted as to specific rules. Things will not be as they were. To obtain visas, likely will require such things as proof of essential purpose; proper medical appraisals; e.g., state of health, positive test of effective antibody protection, [by having had the disease, developed antibodies to a specific antibody level and antibody activity measure, or by having similarly been successfully vaccinated. Note it takes considerable time to develop protective antibodies after a vaccine and not everyone is capable of successfully developing antibodies by either having had the disease or a vaccine and often antibody levels decline over time.] Also note that the COVID-19 virus may mutate, in which case you may not have protection against the newer strain or strains. The visas will likely be issued with specific purposes, places and time periods they will not be issued easily nor with loose terms. The visas will take considerable time to be processed, 4 to 8 week lead times would be realistic or even optimistic.

Do realize that most every economist expects that the recreational and tourism related industries will be bankrupted and the associated travel support industries, lodging, resorts, rental cars, cruise lines, airlines, airports, airplane manufacturers, restaurants / bars, theaters, arenas, etc.

In the foreseeable future the only travel that will be permitted will be for business and vital services purposes.

Strongly suggest you learn to enjoy your local area after the Stay in Place / Stay at Home restrictions are eased. Welcome to the new normal, accept it and learn to thrive in it.

The virus knows no boundaries and establishes its own timeline and that timeline is only in its beginning.

As to Australia, these are the present rules. Do not expect that these will be eased anytime soon.

Australia’s borders are closed. Only Australian citizens, residents and immediate family members can travel to Australia.

All travellers arriving in Australia must undertake a mandatory 14-day quarantine at designated facilities (for example, a hotel), in their port of arrival.

You can travel to Australia only if you are an Australian citizen, a permanent resident, an immediate family member of an Australian citizen or permanent resident or are a New Zealand citizen usually resident in Australia. If you are an immediate family member holding a temporary visa you will need to provide us with evidence of your relationship.

To the OP, Herein are the rules applicable to persons that you aren't:

Australian citizen.

Australian citizens can enter Australia, even without a valid Australian passport. If you don’t have a valid passport, please advise airline staff that you are an Australian citizen and do not require a visa to enter Australia (even if you are a dual national). The airline will contact the Australian Border Force to verify your citizenship. It is important you get to the airport early in case of any delays. Departure from the country you are in is subject to the rules and decisions of authorities in that country.​

Permanent resident

You must undertake a mandatory 14-day quarantine at designated facilities (for example, a hotel), in your port of arrival. Provisional (temporary) visa holders cannot come to Australia.

New Zealand citizens usually resident in Australia

New Zealand citizens who normally reside in Australia (with a subclass 444 visa or other permanent or provisional visa) can come to Australia. You must carry proof of residency (driver's licence or documents that show your residency). Present it at check-in. You must undertake a mandatory 14-day quarantine at designated facilities (for example, a hotel), in your port of arrival.​

Important: New Zealand citizens and permanent residents not living in Australia can only transit through Australia to return to New Zealand. Refer to Transiting Australia.

I am immediate family of an Australian citizen or permanent resident
All travellers arriving in Australia must undertake a mandatory 14-day quarantine at designated facilities (for example, a hotel), in their port of arrival.

You may need to provide information to the Department before travelling to Australia.

You are only considered to be an immediate family member if you are:

a spouse
a de facto partner
a dependent child/ren
a legal guardian.

Guardians

A guardian, in relation to a child, is a person who has responsibility for the long-term welfare of the child and has all the powers, rights and duties that are vested by law or custom in the guardian of the child, other than:

the right to have the daily care and control of the child; and
the right and responsibility to make decisions concerning the daily care and control of the child.

If you don’t have a visa

You can't come to Australia until you have a visa. Apply for a visa and include proof (such as your marriage certificate, your birth certificate or birth certificate for your children).

If you have a temporary visa (except for Partner and Child visa holders)
Use the enquiry form below to provide further information to the Department. You should attach proof (such as your marriage certificate, evidence of your de-facto relationship such as shared finances or property, your birth certificate or birth certificate for your children). Do not travel until we advise that you can.

Partner (subclasses 100, 309, 801, 820) and Child (subclasses 101, 102, 445) visa holders can come to Australia. You do not need to request an exemption.

Prospective Marriage (subclass 300) visa holders can’t come to Australia at the moment. This is indicative of how disruptive the virus has become and will be. Not even for love, or sex.


Leaving Australia: It isn't as easy as it used to be.

Australians

Australian citizens and permanent residents cannot travel overseas due to COVID-19 restrictions. Welcome to Hotel California, Aussies!


However, if you want to leave Australia, you may be able to apply online for an exemption to travel if you fall under one of the following categories:

your travel is as part of the response to the COVID-19 outbreak, including the provision of aid
your travel is essential for the conduct of critical industries and business (including export and import industries)
you are travelling to receive urgent medical treatment that is not available in Australia
you are travelling on urgent and unavoidable personal business
compassionate or humanitarian grounds
your travel is in the national interest.
That is to say, you better have a damned good and compelling reason to leave your nation. They will look at you like: ARE YOU F'ing CRAZY? And they don't want crazy Aussies going outside their homes.

You will not need to apply for an exemption if you are:

ordinarily resident in a country other than Australia They be glad to see you leave, as soon as it is possible for you to leave.
airline and maritime crew and associated safety workers
a New Zealand citizen holding a Special Category (subclass 444) visa
engaged in the day-to-day conduct of outbound and inbound freight
associated with essential work at offshore facilities
travelling on official government business, including members of the Australian Defence Force.

[thinwater]

What a depressing thread.

• Conspiracy theories.
• The bad old days were better.
• We'll all go broke.

Really? I would have thought sailors were survivors. And more open minded.


Yes, a challenge, but just a blip in the history of the world. Be careful and keep moving. A few months, or even a year of reduced productivity (many industries are still wide-open) is not going to make that much difference. A little austerity, and we'll be back on our feet.


Of course, people will choke on the idea of austerity and working our way out of this. Oh well. They will either adjust expectations or go nuts.

[DanCan]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

I am rather surprised at that statement, especially after your logical comments about communist China and their lies.

I am not an anti-vaxer. At the same time I think it is good to question things, especially things that are new and have no long term studies. Many, if not most, vaccines are safe, however there is much that we don't know.

For years, plastic bottles were assumed to be safe, then people started noticing issues with PBA. Now many manufactures use BPS in lieu of BPA,. The problem is that now we found out it may be worse than BPA.

The comment about gulf war syndrome from the vaccine forced upon our troops is spot on. We know for a fact that the main ingredient is a factor in Gulf War Syndrome. It was forced upon us despite it being rushed, having unknown effects, and being of questionable efficacy.

Why would anyone think this will definitely be different? Again, a vaccine may be the answer, but we don't know. One or more of the vaccines being worked upon may be safe over the long run, but again, we don't know.

Sir, there isn’t a single medical, peer reviewed academic study that brings evidence to the claim vaccines harm people or cause diseases. Zero.
But anyone can find lots of false claims, unproven discourses from antivaxers, particularly in the YouTube realm.
We don’t need to validate false claims, especially now that serious laboratories (one in my country Canada, for example) making progress toward a vaccine against Covid-19.
Science is going to bring solutions and science, as always, has brought us out of the dark ages of superstition, ignorance and delusion.
You have stated you would even bribe a physician to avoid a vaccine. Have it your way. You are entitled to your (unscientific) opinion but this is not what we need at this time. That, of course, is my opinion and don’t pretend speaking for others here.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by thinwater

open minded

On Cruisers Forum? Not so much.

[TigerPaws]

Originally Posted by thinwater

What a depressing thread.

• Conspiracy theories.
• The bad old days were better.
• We'll all go broke.

Really? I would have thought sailors were survivors. And more open minded.

Yes, a challenge, but just a blip in the history of the world. Be careful and keep moving. A few months, or even a year of reduced productivity (many industries are still wide-open) is not going to make that much difference. A little austerity, and we'll be back on our feet.

Of course, people will choke on the idea of austerity and working our way out of this. Oh well. They will either adjust expectations or go nuts.

Humans are but a blip in the history of the Earth.
The Earth is but a blip in the history of our solar system.
Our Sun is but a blip in the history of our galaxy.

Where will that end?

We (you, me and everyone else) is in the here and now, real people are suffering tens of millions in the U.S. and far more world wide because of what?

Fearmongering by governments and the media.

This fearmongering in destroying peoples lives, their means to earn a living.

Yes the virus is real, but life goes on, people die every day destroying the worlds economy is not the answer.

Then again that is not what this Planned-demic is about is it.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Sir, there isn’t a single medical, peer reviewed academic study that brings evidence to the claim vaccines harm people or cause diseases. Zero.
But anyone can find lots of false claims, unproven discourses from antivaxers, particularly in the YouTube realm.
We don’t need to validate false claims, especially now that serious laboratories (one in my country Canada, for example) making progress toward a vaccine against Covid-19.
Science is going to bring solutions and science, as always, has brought us out of the dark ages of superstition, ignorance and delusion.
You have stated you would even bribe a physician to avoid a vaccine. Have it your way. You are entitled to your (unscientific) opinion but this is not what we need at this time. That, of course, is my opinion and don’t pretend speaking for others here.

We know that the vaccines that were forced upon us in the Gulf War are a contributing factor in Gulf War Syndrome. That is NOT a false claim.

I agree with you that science may bring a solution to this. I also clearly stated that I am not against vaccines as a matter of policy. I have had vaccines for a number of diseases in order to travel. I recognize and embrace scientific advances in general. I am however against blindly accepting things without thought.

[slug]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Sir, there isn’t a single medical, peer reviewed academic study that brings evidence to the claim vaccines harm people or cause diseases. Zero.
But anyone can find lots of false claims, unproven discourses from antivaxers, particularly in the YouTube realm.
We don’t need to validate false claims, especially now that serious laboratories (one in my country Canada, for example) making progress toward a vaccine against Covid-19.
Science is going to bring solutions and science, as always, has brought us out of the dark ages of superstition, ignorance and delusion.
You have stated you would even bribe a physician to avoid a vaccine. Have it your way. You are entitled to your (unscientific) opinion but this is not what we need at this time. That, of course, is my opinion and don’t pretend speaking for others here.

You are wrong

Vaccines have many serious side effects

How many side effects are tolerable is a question that only science can answer and only society can approve

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Sir, there isn’t a single medical, peer reviewed academic study that brings evidence to the claim vaccines harm people or cause diseases. Zero.
But anyone can find lots of false claims, unproven discourses from antivaxers, particularly in the YouTube realm.
We don’t need to validate false claims, especially now that serious laboratories (one in my country Canada, for example) making progress toward a vaccine against Covid-19.
Science is going to bring solutions and science, as always, has brought us out of the dark ages of superstition, ignorance and delusion.
You have stated you would even bribe a physician to avoid a vaccine. Have it your way. You are entitled to your (unscientific) opinion but this is not what we need at this time. That, of course, is my opinion and don’t pretend speaking for others here.

But they own the media that you copied and pasted that from and they own the science that you say is going to save us. They own the peers for the review and they own the officials that regulate it. They are not required to do safety studies on vaccines and they are not liable for damages.

I want to know how much it will cost to get fake "stamp of approval" so that I can start saving. They will skip most of the trials for this one I am sure. It will be some kind of DNA altering formula with a dose of some extra viruses for good measure. They also want to inject you with a microchip so they can keep track of you. It will probably use 5G.

He didn't say that would bribe to say he got the vaccine. He said that he DID! I am pretty sure that he made the right choice no?