Covid plan B for Canada staying closed

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Trading freedom for security.......

The equation is not the same everywhere because of the demographics.

...

Off course, this road is paved with good intentions. We would not have it any other way, would we?

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

It is always sad watching people trading freedom for security...

I guess, if freedom is the "be all and end all" of your universe. I think even Mr Franklin would agree that things are bit more complicated these days.

Besides, one need to remember that NFLD has only been a part of the confederation since 1949. Many still think of other Canadians as on the same level as foreigners... And yet still some of the friendliest people in the world.

[wedivebc]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

Hi Scorpius - I meant no disrespect. But what I was trying to say is literal coastline length - say 17,500 miles - isn't a very useful measurement. Even if you have *seen* every inch of coastline, doing so doesn't require sailing/motoring each inch of the coastline.

Your comment that Maine has more coastline than BC is inherently false no matter how you measure the actual length.

[Mike OReilly]

Hpeer has put Newfoundland in excellent perspective. Their choice to bar people like me, and Howard from entering the province has been a major blow to my lifestyle. My boat is my only home, and I simply can't get to her.

But I can't fault my Newfoundlander friends for making the choices they have. It's a major inconvenience for me, but it's life for them -- literally. And thanks to the draconian measures taken by all the Canadian Atlantic Provinces, they are now the safest place to be in North America, and possibly the world (from a Covid-19 perspective anyway).

LH, condemning people who trade freedom for security may be a nice political proclamation, but we all do this all the time. If you live with other people you trade some freedom for security in a thousand different ways, all the time. From the traffic light or speed limit you obey, to the little security theatre we all go through to board an airplane; we always trading some freedom for some perceived security.

It's way too simplistic to pass negative judgement on others who make different choices than you. Unless you live by yourself on a desert island, you are making the same types of trades. Does this make your choices "sad?"


P.S. Macblaze is correct. When we leave Newfoundland and head back to the mainland many of my Newfoundland friends say "So, yer heading back to Canada."

[hpeer]

Newfie saying I head.

Ya know how to pick out the Newfoundlanders in heaven?

They are the ones who want to home.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

LH, condemning people who trade freedom for security may be a nice political proclamation, but we all do this all the time. If you live with other people you trade some freedom for security in a thousand different ways, all the time. From the traffic light or speed limit you obey, to the little security theatre we all go through to board an airplane; we always trading some freedom for some perceived security.

[/I]

To some extend I agree with your reasoning. However, I normally have a choice whether to go through the ”airport security” or not. It looks like you were deprived from making this choice. “They” made it for you.
What makes me sad is to see how this pandemic was eagerly exploited by certain governments to restrict their subjects freedom.
More important, what is going to happen next? This virus is not going anywhere. Are you content with never seeing your boat again because someone does not feel safe when you cross an imaginary border? Or do you think at some point someone will say, “OK we humiliated you long enough, the drill is over, you may go on with your life”?

[hpeer]

Mike,

Speaking of freedom and rules and how things work out in queer ways.....

Grenada driving is a free for all mess. They have this HUGE number of cars, the roads are narrow and twisty, speed bumps will launch you, no traffic signs, few markings. You want a round a bout? Well stack 3 transport tires in the middle of the intersection and you are good. Traffic lights? They have 3 or 4, they are turned on once in a while. Most toads are barely 2 lanes and there is no parking, and no shoulders, so you just STOP.

And you know what? It works!!! Lord thundering Jasus, it works!!!

People are polite, patient, respectful. They don't blare the horns, they don't curse, no road rage. They stop and take turns. They will wait for you. And they are extremely respectful of pedestrians, they stop and let folks walk across.

Remove the rules and people revert to self discipline and personal responsibility. Saw the same thin in Puerto Rico (Ponce specifically) after the hurricane wiped out the signs and traffic lights. People adapted and made it work.

I am dying to try this in NYC and DC to see how it goes!!!!! LOL

[hpeer]

Lost Horizions,

Yes you make some good points. There is always some AH who is going to game the system to their personal advantage. And I fear that will happen with this virus. It won’t be NL being careful about their travel restrictions you need to fear.

Fear the helpful politician who is passing some legislation for your own good. Watch out for the introduction of “health passports” for example.

[Lost Horizons]

Exactly. I am sure they will not let this crisis go to waste.
Right now, however, my biggest concern is that I cannot go to Europe to meet some people and it is affecting my life in a noticeable way. Probably will have to adjust cruising plans next year too.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

To some extend I agree with your reasoning. However, I normally have a choice whether to go through the ”airport security” or not. It looks like you were deprived from making this choice. “They” made it for you.

This is semantics. If you need to fly somewhere for your job, or to reach a dying mother, how much of a choice do you really have? If you drive and hit a red light, how much choice do you really have to stop, or not?

It's the basic social contract that we all engage in all the time. The only pure people are those living completely by themselves. Not many of us can do this (and certainly none on this forum ).

So my initial point is that it's not helpful framing this in terms of "sad" and "humiliating." These are themes driven by current dysfunctional political discourse. They don't advance your very serious and vital point about how tenuous so many of so-called freedoms are proving to be.

I've been expressing concerns about how easily freedoms have been restricted in the face of this very real global pandemic. As you already said, (and to put it another way): Beware, most especially, of our best intentions.

So I'm with you. Those in power are exploiting this very real crisis. They have expanded their power. And once power expands, it is rarely handed back. They are largely doing it for the best of reason -- this IS a very real health crisis -- but power is expanding and freedoms are disappearing. I don't have any good answer to this, but I am very concerned.

And BTW, I'm not just talking about governmental power. In some ways, the power expansions of private people and corporations are even more dangerous. In theory, we can vote the bums out. It's pretty hard for citizens to get rid of the CEOs and denizens of Wall Street.

So yes, I've very concerned about this expansion of power by the powerful. I think it requires a serious discussion, and struggle against any permanent expansion.

Originally Posted by hpeer

Mike,

Speaking of freedom and rules and how things work out in queer ways.....

Grenada driving is a free for all mess. They have this HUGE number of cars, the roads are narrow and twisty, speed bumps will launch you, no traffic signs, few markings. You want a round a bout? Well stack 3 transport tires in the middle of the intersection and you are good. Traffic lights? They have 3 or 4, they are turned on once in a while. Most toads are barely 2 lanes and there is no parking, and no shoulders, so you just STOP.

And you know what? It works!!! Lord thundering Jasus, it works!!!

People are polite, patient, respectful. They don't blare the horns, they don't curse, no road rage. They stop and take turns. They will wait for you. And they are extremely respectful of pedestrians, they stop and let folks walk across.

Remove the rules and people revert to self discipline and personal responsibility. Saw the same thin in Puerto Rico (Ponce specifically) after the hurricane wiped out the signs and traffic lights. People adapted and made it work.

I am dying to try this in NYC and DC to see how it goes!!!!! LOL

I think you're onto something. Civil societies have always policed themselves. I'd argue the best ones do it this way. The worst option is an external "sovereign" force that demands obedience.

I think this explains why small communities tend to be far more civil and outwardly pleasant. There is a collective policing of actions and attitudes that carries very real consequences for those who choose to be uncivil. I can't blare my horn or act like a jerk in a small town because I have a personal connection to the other person. At very least I will see them again very soon. This is why people are outwardly nicer and more civil in small communities -- there is a very real consequence for bad behaviour.

The same goes for your traffic management example. There are real consequences for bad behaviour, hence people learn very quickly how to operate civilly.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is semantics. If you need to fly somewhere for your job, or to reach a dying mother, how much of a choice do you really have? If you drive and hit a red light, how much choice do you really have to stop, or not?

I agree with the rest of your post, but this part is debatable. If I don’t like the hustle of the TSA, I don’t fly. As for your example, the vast majority of the population of this planet lives where they were born, so they simply don’t need to fly to see a parent.
Same with driving. Nobody forces me to drive on public roads where I have to follow the associated rules. (And I take it you have not driven in places like Southern Italy, such as Naples, where a red light is a mere suggestion to watch out.)
By the way, I have flown couple times on the company jet. It was very painful to fly commercial after that. So, for those of us who don’t want to tolerate government outrage and are very determined not to submit, there is always a way!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

It is always sad watching people trading freedom for security...

It's always sad watching people trading health for politics.


It's always sad watching people trading concern for their fellow citizens for their own selfish interests/priorities.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

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I think this explains why small communities tend to be far more civil and outwardly pleasant. There is a collective policing of actions and attitudes that carries very real consequences for those who choose to be uncivil. I can't blare my horn or act like a jerk in a small town because I have a personal connection to the other person. At very least I will see them again very soon. This is why people are outwardly nicer and more civil in small communities -- there is a very real consequence for bad behaviour.

The same goes for your traffic management example. There are real consequences for bad behaviour, hence people learn very quickly how to operate civilly.

Interesting points, Mike.


And the smaller communities "back East" are the very ones who are keeping you from getting back to your home.


And are also the healthiest ones.


Conundrum...???


Sorry we missed each other when you were here. My surgery went well but a herniated disc reared it's ugly head, or rear so-to-speak.


C'mon back, I'm ready for ya now.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

It's always sad watching people trading concern for their fellow citizens for their own selfish interests/priorities.

Isn’t it a foundation of Western civilization?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

Isn’t it a foundation of Western civilization?

Maybe in your definition of civilization.


Perhaps you misplaced the civil part.