LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[mcarling]

The Mitsubishi i-MiEV uses lithium titanate oxide batteries, which they claim to be better than LiFePO4.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by mcarling

That's a good point. Many LiFePO4 batteries bought today are likely to be replaced because something better is available before they reach the end of their life cycle.

You mean like all those who have dumped their still functioning lead acid batteries to replace them with lithium ferrous batteries just because they are a superior chemistry
I have no doubt there will be better chemistries or even a completely different approach to energy storage, cracking sea water into hydrogen and oxygen for fuel cell use using a catalyst that reacts with the natural salt in the water...... who knows, but I doubt anyone will dump good lithium cells just because something new comes along. The next revolution will need to be something very special to knock these cells off there perch, how much better are the new Li cells compared to lead acid, yet there is a massive resistance to move away from what they already know.

T1 Terry

[FlyingCloud1937]

As some allude to here, many changes are in the for front of battery technology.

Lith-Tec. today is going to be wholly different 3 years from now. So is AGM, and also the lowly FLA's.

The new developments that have been in the pipeline now for the last 3 years, is just starting to make head lines.

What is the biggest player on the horizon for Lith... is the new requirements under hazardous shipping regulations, that landed Janurary 13, and now most of the Freight Forwarders are, saying stop the marry go round. It's a WW addendum and everyone has to deal with it.

Next up google "Advanced Batteries" and carbon black to see how it plays into Lith, AGM, and the lowly FLA's.

The last 5 years in the bat labs is just starting to make ways into the journals. And soon to be seen in the market place.

Everything we know about bats, is going to start changing very quickly.

I am prepping a 105 footer to spend the next 9 months, with 15 souls on-board in the Bering Sea. 5 sperate bat banks, I wanted to look at lith-tech for the ships emeregency power but, it's not a go because I can't find a manufacture to stand behind it, unless it's really stupid money.

I already have two boats afloat with Lith EM, but that vendor closed up shop.

According to the Seattle Victron Dealer the "Vic AGM's" are selling at a pre-order rate in the thousands of units, as far out as 4-6 months DOD. Evedently they are of the new Advanced Battery chemistry, that are in the test market... before all the Marketing Starts in Earnest.

Life is fun then it changes, it up to you to make it fun again.

Lloyd

[nimblemotors]

I am investigating Zinc-Air batteries for my solar boat.
They potentially have 3-4x the capacity over Lithium per lb,
and should cost much less. They don't have the power of lithium, not good for a car,
but good enough for a slow boat.
Might be able to make them myself, totally safe and abundant materials

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

I am investigating Zinc-Air batteries for my solar boat.
They potentially have 3-4x the capacity over Lithium per lb,
and should cost much less. They don't have the power of lithium, not good for a car,
but good enough for a slow boat.
Might be able to make them myself, totally safe and abundant materials

My hearing aid batteries are zinc/air, tiny things, yet they go off with quite bang and throw large pieces of burning wood out of the wood heater if they are accidently thrown in there when they are flat. In house bank size that would be a big bang, I doubt the bottom would stay in the boat.

Is zinc/air rechargeable, I thought they were only primary cells?

T1 Terry

[deckofficer]

Just thought I would share this with Cruiser's Forum. On the Trawler's Forum LiFePO4 is being discussed as house banks too, and we have detractors on that forum also, I present to you "skidgear" and his contribution for a better understanding by insurance companies.......

"I spent much of this week speaking with the technical staff of several large insurance companies about the confusing and potentially dangerous situation that is developing for Lithium batteries amongst do-it-yourself boaters. Every one of them is extremely concerned with the "wild west" (their words) information scenario that is developing in the marine community... primarily via boating web sites. ABYC is in the loop and I suggested that they step up their efforts to clarify design, component certification, installation, monitoring, maintenance, and inspection criteria for a minimum acceptable system. I have also alerted the Coast Guard Engineering and Boating Safety offices to the potential safety scenario that is clearly developing. I specifically requested that both ABYC and the Coast Guard conduct a serious engineering assessment of the Greenline boats that are being imported. Awards in the categories of design innovation and eco-friendly are nice, but the important categories are performance, safety, and quality. Greenline might set the example for the industry...good or bad. Information in these threads is heavy on performance potential and light on safety. The word cavalier comes to mind."

My response to this twit.......

"skidgear,

And as a kid you were the hall monitor, right? I don't know of anyone using any other lithium battery for a house bank other than the perfectly safe LiFePO4 chemistry. We give up some energy density with these cells over lithium ion, but have no thermal issues. Yet you felt it was your duty to cast doubt over all lithium battery installations? Politicians use scare tactics for their agenda, what is your agenda?"


If anyone here has anything to add for "skidgear" here is the link another solar question, beating the dead horse - Trawler Forum

[T1 Terry]

An interesting read, the last thing I need is yet another forum, so I'll refrain from posting there :lol:

T1 Terry

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

You mean like all those who have dumped their still functioning lead acid batteries to replace them with lithium ferrous batteries just because they are a superior chemistry
I have no doubt there will be better chemistries or even a completely different approach to energy storage, cracking sea water into hydrogen and oxygen for fuel cell use using a catalyst that reacts with the natural salt in the water...... who knows, but I doubt anyone will dump good lithium cells just because something new comes along. The next revolution will need to be something very special to knock these cells off there perch, how much better are the new Li cells compared to lead acid, yet there is a massive resistance to move away from what they already know.

T1 Terry

In my opinion, LiFePO4 is so much better than any variety of lead acid that it would make sense to replace brand new lead acid batteries. You may disagree.

Using your logic, one might say "I doubt anyone will dump a good boat just because something new comes along." People do sell perfectly good boats to obtain better boats. I see no reason why it should not sometimes be the same for batteries.

[T1 Terry]

On a few on the caravan and motorhome foums I'm on, an ad to sell used lead acid batteries no matter how new they still are, never gets a response, yet s/h lithium ferrous batteries sell on evil bay over this way quite often. They may have come to the end of life as EV batteries, but they still have many years as house batteries left in them.
If a lead acid battery system is still doing all you need, there really isn't much point in replacing it. It's different with the caravan people, weight is their big issue, so they sometimes have little choice but to remove still functioning lead acid batteries and replace them with a smaller and much lighter lithium ferrous pack. I have never heard anyone say they would go back to lead acid once they had made the change, a few have bought new vans and swapped the batteries over though :lol:

T1 Terry

T1 Terry

[roetter]

The first thing I will do on my brand new boat is to throw 6 140AH Exide LA batteries out for 700Ah of LiFePo.

Anybody interested in LA batteries that are less than 2 months old?

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by roetter

The first thing I will do on my brand new boat is to throw 6 140AH Exide LA batteries out for 700Ah of LiFePo.

Anybody interested in LA batteries that are less than 2 months old?

Welcome to Instant Crickets

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by roetter

The first thing I will do on my brand new boat is to throw 6 140AH Exide LA batteries out for 700Ah of LiFePo.

Anybody interested in LA batteries that are less than 2 months old?

If they were Trojans, I'd say yes, even if they were 4 years old, and I was able to see the logs.

Exide...yes just like Trojans...if the this was 1944.

Anything else, well the questions begin.


Say, on the other hand, I know of a fellow getting rid of of some 3 year old lith-technology...they are Lifepo, Do you want to buy them...They're cheap at .50 cents on the dollar for new Blaqon prices as they list on their current web site?

Lloyd

I am going to post them in the FSBO forum, in the next day or 2 when I have a chance.

They have logs, They came of a lighting Strike boat.

[T1 Terry]

What brand, part number, per cell capacity and quantity Lloyd? The cell voltages under a 0.5CA load will tell if they are still good or not.

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

No further information available Lloyd?

T1 Terry

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

No further information available Lloyd?

T1 Terry

Ouch Terry,

You trying to pick a fight?

This is the same mil.spec bat that I installed on a sail boat as the nav/com back up. It's from a Seattle Company that is now out of business.

It is in a steal case, with internal BMS for cell temp. balancing, LVD/HVD.

While I expect it is nothing more then 4 cells tied together, with company priority BMS Temp/LVD/HVD.
The company is out of business. We don't know what is involved in the circuits.

The insurance company will pay for the replacement/repair costs, but do to the fact the company is out of business they want it off the boat.

The boat is do back in Seattle in July, Shipping of LI is out of the question for a questionable battery. I told the owner, either dump it, or bring it back to the states if you have room.

I expect that the case can be removed and 4 cells can then be Mc Givered into something.

We won't know until they arrive. The owner has no interest in dealing with it. His point was made after I posted, So I can expect to hear from him in the next couple of weeks.

While he had no complaint of the system before the strike. I sense a little hostility in his email/v-mail since dealing with the insurance company.

Funny thing I was, this is new and uncharted technology, so it's not like I over sold it. Now I feel something bouncing back my way. We'll see.

Lloyd