LFP batteries now proven to be 100% safe

[s/v Jedi]

ABYC newsletter:

September 2022 Newsletter

ABYC President's Message

Common Sense

ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.

We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.

The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.

Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.

We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.

Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.

- John

jadey@abycinc.org

[StuM]

Very misleading Subject line!


Nothing proven here.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


"take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work."
"But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round."

[RaymondR]

Glad to see you started a dedicated thread on this Jedi, it's an extremely important subject for many of us.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

ABYC newsletter:

September 2022 Newsletter

ABYC President's Message

Common Sense

ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.

This sounds like "suck it and see" (empirical methodology) which I am a big fan of.

We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.

USCG, as far as I know does not manufacture or sell lithium batteries so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on the vested interest aspect.

The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.

So maybe they did not do the Will Prouse thing with the electric drill but anyone who drills into a battery box full of batteries with an electric drill is no great loss to the gene pool anyway.

Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.

We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.

They could have put a jerry can of gasoline in with them for those of us who store our outboard fuel in the battery box.

Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.

- John

jadey@abycinc.org

Looking forward to seeing the full report but will sleep a little easier until then anyway.

[goboatingnow]

Anyone who has studied LFP combined with a good “ all cell” bms monitor knows they can sleep soundly at night knowing they have a safer batteries then anything lead acid before it.

The “ hysteria “ exhibited on certain circles at “ wooooo Lithium “ is just just hysteria.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by StuM

Very misleading Subject line!


Nothing proven here.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


"take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work."
"But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round."

I remember my discrete mathematics classes where they taught me that I could prove that 1+1=2 by showing it was nothing else, hence it must be 2.

[HeywoodJ]

LFP batteries were demonstrated to be safe, to the level covered by this letter, years (maybe even a decade) ago. This is just another instance showing how slow and behind ABYC is when it comes to any change in the market.

[Baronkrak]

Manual-Lithium-iron-phosphate-(LiFePO4)

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...R-DE-ES-A5.pdf

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...tteries-EN.pdf

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by HeywoodJ

LFP batteries were demonstrated to be safe, to the level covered by this letter, years (maybe even a decade) ago. This is just another instance showing how slow and behind ABYC is when it comes to any change in the market.

What the ABYC says can largely be ignored TE -13 is a travesty of vested interests.

IF ABYC told me the sky was blue id still check it

This is a organisation that ignored the benefits of whole boat ELCIs for 20 years.

Most of its work is partisan , outdated and mediocre.

[hjohnson]

I think the big confusion is whether it was the battery itself caught fire, or the fire was caused by the surrounding wiring and electronics.

In a lot of these systems, people are dealing with significant higher currents than they have in the past, or at least with a system capable of delivering significantly higher current than in the past.

Yes, electrical fires happed with lead acid as well, but your typical lead acid has significantly less power stored in it, and a significantly higher internal resistance. That reduced the hazard.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

I think the big confusion is whether it was the battery itself caught fire, or the fire was caused by the surrounding wiring and electronics.

In a lot of these systems, people are dealing with significant higher currents than they have in the past, or at least with a system capable of delivering significantly higher current than in the past.

Yes, electrical fires happed with lead acid as well, but your typical lead acid has significantly less power stored in it, and a significantly higher internal resistance. That reduced the hazard.

No, LA doesn’t just have the risk of thermal runaway, they can also explode. LA is much more dangerous than LFP.

The experiments were not confused at all about what burned: the battery simply doesn’t start a fire.

About maximum current: every battery must have a fuse, which takes the risk you describe out of the equation.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, LA doesn’t just have the risk of thermal runaway, they can also explode. LA is much more dangerous than LFP.

The experiments were not confused at all about what burned: the battery simply doesn’t start a fire.

About maximum current: every battery must have a fuse, which takes the risk you describe out of the equation.

I wasn’t talking about the experimenters, I was talking about the general public (well ok, not general, but still reasonable popular misconception) that LFPs are more prone to fire than LA. The experimenters here are proving what I said, that the batteries themselves are quite safe. The problems that people have seen and been reported on are either different chemistries, or electrical fires driven by the batteries. Not the batteries themselves.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

I wasn’t talking about the experimenters, I was talking about the general public (well ok, not general, but still reasonable popular misconception) that LFPs are more prone to fire than LA. The experimenters here are proving what I said, that the batteries themselves are quite safe. The problems that people have seen and been reported on are either different chemistries, or electrical fires driven by the batteries. Not the batteries themselves.

Exactly. Make that 99% fires started by Lithium-Cobalt batteries and the rest by faulty wiring/components around the battery

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exactly. Make that 99% fires started by Lithium-Cobalt batteries and the rest by faulty wiring/components around the battery

Yes an TE-13 conflated all Li chemistries together helping perpetuate the myth that everything Li bursts into flames at the drop of a hat. TE-13 even talks about thermal runaway with is not applicable to LFP and LTO . It’s a disgrace

[CaptTom]

It's great that this type of research is being done, and that the results continue to look good. But the title of the thread still elicits skepticism.

Nothing is 100% safe. Drop a wrench across the battery terminals and see what happens. Apparently it would be fair to say that LFP batteries are as safe as, or safer than, LA batteries. Good to know. Thanks!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

It's great that this type of research is being done, and that the results continue to look good. But the title of the thread still elicits skepticism.

Nothing is 100% safe. Drop a wrench across the battery terminals and see what happens. Apparently it would be fair to say that LFP batteries are as safe as, or safer than, LA batteries. Good to know. Thanks!

Safer as they don't produce hydrogen gas when being charged