KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DDabs

The Victron Batteryprotects do this

Only when connected to the BMS , so the diagram should have a connection between the battery protects to the bms ( VE.BUS connection)

I would also put a BP220 directly on the Li battery feed , and remove the mechanical switch. This allows complete disconnect of all potential leakage currents in the event of a LVC , I even don’t like the BP220 and BMS remaining in circuit as if the LVC was active for an extended time , it could damage the battery

The BP220 could then be remotely switched to act as a battery switch

The circuit needs a protective fuse on the Li battery

Personally I’ve switched to high side ( + ) current sensing , as it’s more versatile

[goboatingnow]

Note I believe the current sense on the BMS is wired wrong. The unit should be the main battery return and sensed by the bms.

[DDabs]

OK then.

[DDabs]

Little update:
Got the batteries and everything in place, still re-wiring electrical panel and such. Just picked up more solar- found a great deal on some flexible panels on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28437078943...UAAOSwC~phFARv

Three of these square panels will fit on my foredeck, combined with the 200w on the dodger to give me a total of 695w solar. I have also procured an Air Breeze 403 (older unit) which I will be painting white and putting on a pole on the starboard stern, along with an older Aquair hydrogenerator that i've sourced, which will be mounted on a stainless pole on the stern right below the wind gen.

I'm super excited to get the Victron system up and running and start to play with the Cerbo

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Little update:
Got the batteries and everything in place, still re-wiring electrical panel and such. Just picked up more solar- found a great deal on some flexible panels on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28437078943...UAAOSwC~phFARv

Three of these square panels will fit on my foredeck, combined with the 200w on the dodger to give me a total of 695w solar. I have also procured an Air Breeze 403 (older unit) which I will be painting white and putting on a pole on the starboard stern, along with an older Aquair hydrogenerator that i've sourced, which will be mounted on a stainless pole on the stern right below the wind gen.

I'm super excited to get the Victron system up and running and start to play with the Cerbo

Well done. I like the idea of panels on the foredeck when conditions allow, or would you permanently mount them there? We have a cat and I've wondered about putting temporary panels on one or the other of our trampolines, depending on where the sail shade is and there's not too much water coming up through the nets.

The Cerbo is just a display and settings device for the devices connected to it, but it doesn't do any management of the system. For that you need to rely on your BMS, as a back stop to the settings on each device. Set up DVCC (carefully!!) and you add another layer of protection and control.

But if you connect your BMS to the Cerbo via CANBus, then the BMS really controls all the connected equipment and you are no longer reliant on getting the settings on each device correct. Note that the Cerbo has two CAN systems - VE.Can and BMS-CAN. We were unable to get our BMS (TAO Performance) working with the BMS-CAN interface - the Cerbo was receiving and transmitting CAN messages OK, but wasn't showing the BMS in the devices list. When we switched to use the VE.Can interface (and slowed the BMS output to 250 kbits/s) then the BMS showed up in the devices list. Once that happens you set that device to be the master and now your BMS controls all charging and discharging based on parameters in the BMS.

[DDabs]

The panels are going to be screwed into the deck most likely, although I could do more of a temporary installation to be able to take them off in the future. I saw a youtube video of someone on an RV using some sort of roof bonding tape that seemed durable enough to withstand an ocean crossing, so perhaps I'll go with something like that for the foredeck panels. The dodger panels are bolted through with hardware sourced from custommarineproducts.com.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Little update:
Got the batteries and everything in place, still re-wiring electrical panel and such. Just picked up more solar- found a great deal on some flexible panels on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28437078943...UAAOSwC~phFARv

Three of these square panels will fit on my foredeck, combined with the 200w on the dodger to give me a total of 695w solar. I have also procured an Air Breeze 403 (older unit) which I will be painting white and putting on a pole on the starboard stern, along with an older Aquair hydrogenerator that i've sourced, which will be mounted on a stainless pole on the stern right below the wind gen.

I'm super excited to get the Victron system up and running and start to play with the Cerbo

Wrong panels for your purpose: These panels are not made to step and walk on them, they will be super slippery and screwed in a short time as the cells will break as there is no protective backing plate to share the point loads when stepping on them. These are very good for Bimini or other locations where you not step on and you don‘t add a lot weight.

Flexi panels you can safely walk on have a backing plate of Aluminium, quite thick coating and an Antislip surface making them semiflexible. Look at this one how it’s build:

https://www.offgridtec.com/offgridte...dul.html?c=256
and one of the best you can buy and a best seller since years in European RV crowd. No relationship with them, just good experience as I have 2 of their 90W on top of both engine leads on my cat and they get heavy walking over (each charges only the Hybrid lead 300AH starter/service per engine directly below, the Lifepo4 840AH house gets charged with 3x365W Longli bifacial panels on the davits) and are like new after 1 year use.
Expect max. 50% of the rating of flexible, the 90W above do Max real 4A which is 48W but mostly around 3A=36W. Flexible need air channels below if you put/glue them on a surface to cool the back otherwise you get max. 25-30% out of them and a very short life…that’s how this Google panels are installed too…on roof with room for back cooling.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Well done. I like the idea of panels on the foredeck when conditions allow, or would you permanently mount them there? We have a cat and I've wondered about putting temporary panels on one or the other of our trampolines, depending on where the sail shade is and there's not too much water coming up through the nets.

The Cerbo is just a display and settings device for the devices connected to it, but it doesn't do any management of the system. For that you need to rely on your BMS, as a back stop to the settings on each device. Set up DVCC (carefully!!) and you add another layer of protection and control.

But if you connect your BMS to the Cerbo via CANBus, then the BMS really controls all the connected equipment and you are no longer reliant on getting the settings on each device correct. Note that the Cerbo has two CAN systems - VE.Can and BMS-CAN. We were unable to get our BMS (TAO Performance) working with the BMS-CAN interface - the Cerbo was receiving and transmitting CAN messages OK, but wasn't showing the BMS in the devices list. When we switched to use the VE.Can interface (and slowed the BMS output to 250 kbits/s) then the BMS showed up in the devices list. Once that happens you set that device to be the master and now your BMS controls all charging and discharging based on parameters in the BMS.

Suggest to use bifacial solar panels on davits and/or roof. Compared to normal panel they work with diffusion light and are delivering much more as they are much less sensitive to shading. Perfect for boot as the water reflects the light perfectly so always enough diffusion light around….They are installed vertical in solar farms

I have 3x 365W longli bifacials panels and compared to ankered I only loose 10-20% when on passage with sails or the roof (sometimes partly) shading them.
I have them on the davits and see regularly real 380W per Panel as the backside delivers additional 60W, the front does 320W. Also the low light performance is better as with normal panels…
On my old Ketch I had „normal“ 2x355W LG neon2 355W on davits which are nearly same size and already very good panels. Took them with on the cat and then replaced with Longli bifacials, that’s what I am comparing with in real life.
On Anker you don‘t see much difference but on long passage it’s huge…before I had to run the portable Honda red suitcase aka gen when on passage to top of batteries latest after 3 days , didn’t happen since I have the bifacials as house is still full in the evening even when it was a cloudy day.

[DDabs]

Three 365W bifacial panels... yeah that is a lot of space and weight that I don't want to have on board. The boat will not have davits, nor an arch, nor a bimini. That is some awesome power generation you have been able to get out of that setup though, props!

The panels I found on ebay are made by Sunpower and yes they are not as strong as their other panels, however they were made to be on a weather balloon in the atmosphere, so they can hold up to a little more abuse than what you seem to make out. The point of these panels is to provide solar power for the passage primarily, not so much a permanent setup. They will be placed on an area of the foredeck that will not see foot traffic, so they will not be walked on regularly.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Three 365W bifacial panels... yeah that is a lot of space and weight that I don't want to have on board. The boat will not have davits, nor an arch, nor a bimini. That is some awesome power generation you have been able to get out of that setup though, props!

The panels I found on ebay are made by Sunpower and yes they are not as strong as their other panels, however they were made to be on a weather balloon in the atmosphere, so they can hold up to a little more abuse than what you seem to make out. The point of these panels is to provide solar power for the passage primarily, not so much a permanent setup. They will be placed on an area of the foredeck that will not see foot traffic, so they will not be walked on regularly.

Yes it’s 3x 24kg for the longli panels (very stiff made with a proper 8mm thick frame, so I bolted them directly down without a supporting frame as the LG needed. built quality is top notch and even better then LG to my surprise for half the money) but that saves me a gen+fuel+wind gen+hydrogen+gas oven+gas bottles (all electric galley now), so well invested 75kg+50kg for the mounting frame on the davits and with 3x150Euro=450Euro + 2x Victron 50/100 MPPT for 450Euro+ 3,5kw inverter 350Euro=1250Euro much cheaper, more sustainable, maintenance free and quieter then the above. Would do it in a heartbeat and without thinking again. And weight…I think min the same if not less in total.

You created yourself a slippery foredeck if they are wet (which on a foredeck they mostly will) and that’s a big danger and due to Murphy you have to get over them in force 6 conditions sorry a big no go
Will talk after your first long passage if you didn‘t slide yourself or tossed them overboard till then already
Well what shading solution for the Helm do you have if no Bimini? That’s where these panels belong….

[DDabs]

Where do you have those 6 ft. panels mounted? That's a lot of windage. What kind of boat are you on?

I don't go on deck in my slippers- I think i'll be just fine

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Where do you have those 6 ft. panels mounted? That's a lot of windage. What kind of boat are you on?

I don't go on deck in my slippers- I think i'll be just fine

I have a FP Lavezzi 40ft cat and those 3 panels are mounted directly above the factory davits and between the sugar scoops and are aprox 80cm above deck level without adding any length to the cat. And the Highfield Ultralite 340 dingy with only 42kg for a 340cm dingy is directly below it and perfectly covered from the elements and the flat surface of the panels is actually less windage then the open dingy hanging there without it. No additional windage at all as the Factory Bimini/cabin house/roof is much higher and covering the panels from wind but also shading them more. That’s where the bifacials come in handy…

Doesn‘t matter with what on your feet you go on a piece of ice=wet panel on a foredeck, you will slip or kill the panel. and Murphy takes care you will independently from what you are thinking…..

[DDabs]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I have a FP Lavezzi 40ft cat and those 3 panels are mounted directly above the factory davits and between the sugar scoops and are aprox 80cm above deck level without adding any length to the cat. No additional windage at all as the Factory Bimini/cabin house/roof is much higher and covering the panels from wind but also shading them more. That’s where the bifacials come in handy…

Doesn‘t matter with what on your feet you go on a piece of ice=wet panel on a foredeck, you will slip or kill the panel.

OK makes sense you're on a cat, lol. Was trying to envision that kind of setup on a monohull- would be quite impressive. Love the older FP's, especially the Lavezzi. Cool boat! To say there is no additional windage from 54 sq.ft. of panels is kind of funny though. You just don't notice it as much because you have so much windage already from being on a catamaran. But of course when the wind shifts and comes from the stern, you are going to have windage from the solar array and your dinghy- there is no way around that. It just doesn't affect you really. It would me on my monohull, for sure.

Back to my foredeck- it's massive, and flat. The panels are a 32" square... honestly I can literally step right over them. Really not a concern. I'm 34 years old and in good physical condition, I'll take my chances

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by DDabs

OK makes sense you're on a cat, lol. Was trying to envision that kind of setup on a monohull- would be quite impressive. Love the older FP's, especially the Lavezzi. Cool boat! To say there is no additional windage from 54 sq.ft. of panels is kind of funny though. You just don't notice it as much because you have so much windage already from being on a catamaran. But of course when the wind shifts and comes from the stern, you are going to have windage from the solar array and your dinghy- there is no way around that. It just doesn't affect you really. It would me on my monohull, for sure.

Back to my foredeck- it's massive, and flat. The panels are a 32" square... honestly I can literally step right over them. Really not a concern. I'm 34 years old and in good physical condition, I'll take my chances

Thank you. Yes I like the older much more too, Lavezzi despite some production issues is the last mass produced cat by FP that sails well which was my focus and for my budget real performance cat like a Catana is out of reach and with 192cm tall old outremer and alike not an option. And this i didn‘t wanna screw, so tweaked out a setup that took care of that.

On a mono I would make a simple Reverse U-shape as Bimini/Dodger plus gear frame (for radar/windigen and all stuff) with 2 of these Panels as roof directly above the steering position to protect from the elements. Smartly done this adds little windage and a protection plus space for radar and alike you need anyhow if it’s not a pure race boat. Radar and all other are much easier to reach+install on that frame as on the mast too. Put butyl tape between 2 panels and you have a watertight connection between 2 panel and a solid 1,1m x 3,5m roof with dual purpose.
wondering anyhow why not more people use solar panels as solid roof of Bimini instead of these tents…my buddy boat a Dufour 44 performance (ex regatta boat with carbon mast, rod rigg…all what makes fast is on) is doing exactly that at the moment with 2 Longli bifacial panels.With the bifacials the shading of the radar dome and windigen blades is not a problem and real 700W is all you really need.
So no radar Dome anymore that’s always in the way of the inner storm storm fock, the windgen has a solid frame creating far less humming noise in the hull by vibrations instead of just a pole so a silentwind windgen is finally silent which is not possible with just a pole…
And build a bit more stable (use 3 mm pipes) this arch works also great as short distance/daysail davits.

[DDabs]

You don't happen to have a photo of his setup do you? I'd love to see it. I have thought about the idea of using larger panels in lieu of a bimini, I don't know why more people don't go that route as well. I'd love to see how he has the reverse U shape mounted- I have problems envisioning that with my setup.

My radar is mounted on a very thick pole that is on the port stern. This pole also holds antennas for GPS, Iridium, and AIS. Wind generator will be mounted on the starboard side on a similar pole.