Is Lithium Worth it?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

Being in the market, I can get two 6v agm 220 amp/hr for $400. I can get 4 3.2 lipo4 280 amp/hr for $454... seems like a no-brainer

Where?

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Where?

I was looking straight from China, but the prices change almost daily. Looks like $530 today

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/400094...0Q90.jpg_.webp

[Vespy]

Lead Acid Batteries are fine with a diesel / generator combo.


Yes, they're heavy, lossy, etc, etc...

But don't start on a half arsed electrical redo, unless you can really do everything... (including preparing for an electric engine, if that's something you want).



Whatever type of battery you choose, they'll have roughly a 10 year life span (even the best new ones).



1. Lead batteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-cycle_battery )

+ are cheap, available anywhere where there's cars, not dangerous.
- are heavy, need maintenance, and have a relatively small capacity.



2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel...ydride_battery (honestly, I've never seen this IRL, so I don't know...)


3. Lithium-Ion batteries...


Remember Batteries are basically explosives... They store energy, and a wrong manipulation can blow stuff up.



Whatever you chose make sure your charging system has been verified fully by an electrician, even if you are a certified electrician yourself. Overcharging a battery == boom.



Having driven 36,000 km with a car running on Lithium Ion batteries... (a Renault Zoe first generation of 2014), I can tell you one thing...

There's a lead acid car battery on board to run the onboard computer, but also the brakes and the steering. I've replaced the lead acid battery twice.



After 36,000 km, 6 years and probably 700+ charges, my lithium ion battery made in 2012, of 74kWh max capacity, weighing 732kg, is still at 72% of it's original capacity.

There's new batteries out now that are designed for twice the capacity / weight, and twice the lifespan...



BUT!!!!!



Don't **** around with batteries. If you connect them the wrong way, they become bombs!



Seriously, please be safe

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I was looking straight from China, but the prices change almost daily. Looks like $530 today

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/400094...0Q90.jpg_.webp

You better kerp researching the complete setup first

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You better kerp researching the complete setup first

I have but always keep researching.
People who are afraid of the new lithium are just uninformed about electricity in general. Back in another life, when I was 16 I drove to pick my girl up for a date. Leaving her house as soon as the starter *engaged* there was a loud boom and smoke, gas, and spray shot out the front of my car. The *safe* lead acid had exploded into two pieces. Right down the center, looked like two three cell batteries setting next to each other. To hear the anti lithium crowd that never happens.
Another time I frantically was removing battery cables while a coworker worked the fire extinguisher, the alternator fire kept restarting as the lead acid kept feeding the internal short. With any electrical source the entire system has to be considered. Lithium is different, and has its own requirements, but if done properly can be just as safe as any other power source.
I haven't purchased yet, still seeking more complete answers on chargers...
As stated above, everyone please be safe

[David B]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

We went through this a couple of years ago, and considered all options when our FLA batts expired due to an electrical situation (on hardstand, they were being charged once a month, then fully discharged in the following days). That would have killed lithium too, and if we had lithium, we would not be replacing 4 x 140Ah service batteries, plus 1 x 80Ah starting battery for
just 1000 Euro!

In the end, the FLA's could not be beat - simple, no change of charging equipment, and easy to replace - plus lasting 8+ years, the value worked for us. We have been in many areas, and one can always find a decent FLA battery supply - lithium is a different story.

Battery technology is changing fast - next time round it may be a different situation for us, but today I would still go FLA - for me .....

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by wingssail

"You just have to get past the initial cost."

Aside from the replacement of the diesel with an electric, which only works if you REALLY like sailing, there is probably no valid argument against Lithium except the initial cost of batteries and installation and associated equipment.

People love the batteries, and I don't blame them, but the math does not work. Forget the cost per watt over the life of the batteries. Container loads of ketchup is cheaper then buying it by the bottle, but who needs that much ketchup? Look at the price per year.

280Ah LFP 'Eve' alum case cells are avail for around $400. Many of us on here have got them now.

Thats around 224Ah usable. You would need 560Ah name plate of Lead.

I reckon that sounds like around $600 for the cheapest Lead deep cycle options.

Of course some shipping and a BMS.

There are cheaper lead options but I dont think there is much in it, on a yearly basis.

To me for all the benefits of no PSOC, charge efficiency etc its a no brainer.

I do agree there is a cost, in time and effort to learn. But IMHO to get the best out of Lead batts you also need to put some effort into learning how to treat em.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by David B

We went through this a couple of years ago, and considered all options when our FLA batts expired due to an electrical situation (on hardstand, they were being charged once a month, then fully discharged in the following days). That would have killed lithium too, and if we had lithium, we would not be replacing 4 x 140Ah service batteries, plus 1 x 80Ah starting battery for
just 1000 Euro!

In the end, the FLA's could not be beat - simple, no change of charging equipment, and easy to replace - plus lasting 8+ years, the value worked for us. We have been in many areas, and one can always find a decent FLA battery supply - lithium is a different story.

Battery technology is changing fast - next time round it may be a different situation for us, but today I would still go FLA - for me .....

Chargers. I would suggest many older chargers that you wouldnt use for LFPs probably arent treating Lead batts the best either. Most Lead batt manufacturers have specific recommended Voltages etc to get the best out of them. Many older 'dumb' chargers preprogrammed generic algorithms. Of course they are good enough for the average weekender day sailers. It depends if you want average battery life (probably 2 or 3 years), or better?

Just sayin

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I have but always keep researching.
People who are afraid of the new lithium are just uninformed about electricity in general.

So you think I am uniformed? I am not "afraid" of LFP and after a week of serious research a couple months ago ordered a 400AH complete setup with BMS and BPS. That put me back into research mode and ................. I cancelled the order. Nothing to do with being "afraid" and 100% due to understanding of the total picture.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

So you think I am uniformed? I am not "afraid" of LFP and after a week of serious research a couple months ago ordered a 400AH complete setup with BMS and BPS. That put me back into research mode and ................. I cancelled the order. Nothing to do with being "afraid" and 100% due to understanding of the total picture.

I can't find where I posted *sailorboy1 is uninformed and afraid* but I will keep searching...
You quoted what I said, the *people* who are afraid are uninformed. See all the posts stating your boat will blow up and burn to the waterline, lithium is a death sentence, etc etc. Basically lithium is guaranteed to start a runaway fire and or explosion never heard or thought of with lead acid.
Having worked in the field 1/4 of my life specializing in 6, 12, 24, and 36v DC systems I have seen my share of electrical nightmares, and I would never consider myself any type of expert. I do know a good lithium will feed an electrical short (fire) long after a comparable lead acid self destructs. Lithium will supply greater amps and voltage easily and if something critical fails that is no joke, but from personal experience a dead short being fed by a lead acid battery is just as dangerous and in a boat(or anywhereelse), fire and explosions are not good.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I can't find where I posted *sailorboy1 is uninformed and afraid* but I will keep searching...
.

post #95, don't try to dance your way out by mentioning extreme crazy stuff this isn't national politics

But seriously if you want to get that $500 200AH LFP battery for YOUR boat just do it. I personally ordered a 400AH set of LFP batteries installed in an Al case with the BMS and BPS all installed for $1700 including shipping. But after due to research realized I was nowhere near a comfort level to have all my battery eggs in an easy to break carton. So I cancelled that order and got 464AH of FireFly batteries for $1953 instead.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

post #95, don't try to dance your way out by mentioning extreme crazy stuff this isn't national politics

But seriously if you want to get that $500 200AH LFP battery for YOUR boat just do it. I personally ordered a 400AH set of LFP batteries installed in an Al case with the BMS and BPS all installed for $1700 including shipping. But after due to research realized I was nowhere near a comfort level to have all my battery eggs in an easy to break carton. So I cancelled that order and got 464AH of FireFly batteries for $1953 instead.

That post *95* has no reference to sailorboy1, and if you do some research you will find lead acid batteries are dangerous in there own way, and there are many instances of failure. No extreme or crazy, just truth.
Nothing was directed towards you, sorry to disappoint but the world doesn't revolve around you and every post isn't about you.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

That post *95* has no reference to sailorboy1, and if you do some research you will find lead acid batteries are dangerous in there own way, and there are many instances of failure. No extreme or crazy, just truth.
Nothing was directed towards you, sorry to disappoint but the world doesn't revolve around you and every post isn't about you.

come on you quoted me so you can not try dancing around it

BTW - "you will find lead acid batteries are dangerous in there own way, and there are many instances of failure" so what?

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

come on you quoted me so you can not try dancing around it

BTW - "you will find lead acid batteries are dangerous in there own way, and there are many instances of failure" so what?

I quoted your remark TOWARDS ME about continuing research. That was the ONLY remark about you at all.
If you take the time to read the fear mongering posts about lithium you would understand the *so what* when it refers to lead acid accidents. They happen. All electrical sources have the potential to cause accidents.
I don't understand your need to always attack others on this forum but you definitely show your colors. While I appreciate your permission to purchase what I desire with my money, I assure you it is not required.

[sailorboy1]

deleted as it occurs to me that I have no real reason to care