100AH lithium battery holds MORE power than 100AH lead acid??

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Lithium batteries are better in every way than flooded cell or AGM batteries except for their initial cost and their tendency to catch fire (something best avoided on a boat).

LA is much more dangerous than LiFePO4.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

This has been beaten to death many times.

Lifepo4 batteries don't catch fire
And in many cases are cheaper now than FLA and AGM.

In Oz, our 840ah @ 24v Lifepo4 bank was about 50% cheaper than 840 usable ah of AGM

I would like to see documentation of your claim by an official agency or recognized authority on the subject.

A lot of what gets posted on Internet forums is not factual.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by rwidman

I would like to see documentation of your claim by an official agency or recognized authority on the subject.

Is Rod Collins a recognised authority?

Reader Challenge:
I will continue to offer a challenge that I have been offering now for 12+ years on the Internet and that is; the first person to bring me an image of a lithium iron phosphate cell, properly installed, that erupted into flames or resulted in an explosion due to overcharging, I will pay them $50 cash for that image! In 12+ years not one person has been able to bring me such an image…This is because LiFePo4 is an extremely safe chemistry.

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

Plenty more here, read up

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+l...rp&bshm=rime/2

A lot of what gets posted on Internet forums is not factual

.

Yep, like the repeated but unsupported by actual evidence claims that lifepo4 catch on fire and they cost more than AGM

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Is Rod Collins a recognised authority?

Plenty more here, read up

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+l...rp&bshm=rime/2

Yep, like the repeated but unsupported by actual evidence claims that lifepo4 catch on fire and they cost more than AGM

Plus of course the tests done by ABYC where they failed their attempts to get them to ignite.

[Lee Jerry]

Nigel Calder says Li batteries can catch fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH_Nf0wAVLQ

It's in the first 2 min.



(I haven't heard it from any other "authority.")

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

Nigel Calder says Li batteries can catch fire:

It's in the first 2 min.



(I haven't heard it from any other "authority.")

Calder clearly states Lifepo4 good
Other chemistry bad

Add, hold on, changes his mind a few seconds later

He should rush over with his photographic evidence of it happening and get his $50 off of Rod Collins

This one from sinopoly they couldn't get them to burn even when placed in a fire
Couldn't get them to burn when shorted
Couldn't get them to burn when shot with a gun
Etc etc
https://youtu.be/aQs7L5LmEss?si=qTgglXXxB9roxMap

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Calder clearly states Lifepo4 good
Other chemistry bad

Add, hold on, changes his mind a few seconds later

Irrelevant.

You said:

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Lifepo4 batteries don't catch fire

NC said they can and that he has pictures. (No, I haven't seen them.)

This one from sinopoly they couldn't get them to burn even when placed in a fire
Couldn't get them to burn when shorted
Couldn't get them to burn when shot with a gun
Etc etc
https://youtu.be/aQs7L5LmEss?si=qTgglXXxB9roxMap

Just because they couldn't / didn't do it doesn't mean it can't happen.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

]
NC said they can and that he has pictures. (No, I haven't seen them.)


.

That's nice
Pictures or it didn't happen

And Rod Collins would say the same.

[wholybee]

So, part of the issue with this argument is that LFP "don't catch fire", but that isn't an absolute, literal "don't." They can. They have. Just like lead-acid batteries have exploded in a ball of fire. It _can_ happen, but in the common sense of the word, it doesn't happen very often, so we say it doesn't happen.

When an LFP does catch fire, it often self-extinguishes before any real damage is done, or is easy to put out. There are far more installations in RVs, and if you look there you can see examples. I have seen no examples on boats-yet, but at this point most boat installs are well done, RV's are more commonly installed by backyard garage mechanics. Almost always the 280Ah/300Ah EVE/CATL/Liitokala form factor bought from Alixxx. This is why I recommended both against Alixxx and to buy Winston or Calb cells.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/li...d-flame.64532/
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/ha...ire-out.65087/
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/my...ht-fire.47753/
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/li...re-dept.47178/

It didn't take very long at all to find those. There are lots of examples of them catching on fire, the more you look, the more you find. But none of them went into "Thermal runaway" where the fire couldn't be put out, and they generally go out on their own before catching something else on fire. They can burn a few minutes and go out, and the wood box will blacken, but not (usually) catch on fire.

Do I get my $50?

[Simi 60]

Yeah, ok "technically" they can catch on fire
But when people talk lith fire I think they mean like what you see in the news, a fireball that is near impossible to put out.

What I see with the lifepo4 "fire" is more an outgas, a smoulder
And if there is a fire as such it's not the cell, more the surrounds that catches.

And, it's usually poor quality/damaged/mismatched cells, the cheapest cells they could buy.
Poor installation/not following recommended assembly/not following a proper charge regime that's the cause.

It's not the chemistry.

[Uncle Bob]

It also appears that many of the merchants of doom don't understand the difference between Lion and Liron.

[Chotu]

All I know is I sleep soundly with my LiFePO4 bank. I slept soundly with FLAs for decades too.

It’s so rare to have a problem with batteries in general, it’s not something to worry about.

Better to check on your lightning strike preparation instead. Much more likely and has been known to burn

[s/v Jedi]

For proving that LFP can catch fire, do you understand what they throw at it? I believe that they throw something like 100V at a 12V battery. Pure theoretical banter that never happens in real life on a boat.

It’s just arguing because they love to argue.

Under realistic conditions the only thing one can do to a lifepo4 battery is incinerate it because it won’t burn by itself.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

LA is much more dangerous than LiFePO4.

Fully agree, especially AGM...a faulty regulator (issue alternator No1) is enough to have a swimming gas chamber and then fire as they get a runaway. The older they get the more dangerous AGMs are.
Easy to prevent when you use a BMV 710/712 and cutoff with contactor of your choice when charge voltage above 14.8V.
Had this in my old mono ketch when a cell short happened due to half dry and overload from bowtruster and was tossing gasing AGM overboard...thanks god i had a proper protection mask on board. Also happened in my 3 month old BMW 335xd where i riped out the runaway AGM on a highway parking spot.

With Lifepo4 i never had more info and control about the battery bank due to BMS monitoring.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For proving that LFP can catch fire, do you understand what they throw at it? I believe that they throw something like 100V at a 12V battery. Pure theoretical banter that never happens in real life on a boat.

It’s just arguing because they love to argue.

Under realistic conditions the only thing one can do to a lifepo4 battery is incinerate it because it won’t burn by itself.

Well the only source that could deliver>100V is a faulty MPPT, thats why the best is just good enough here.

Otherwise i fully agree.