Simplicity: Yacht Owners Feared Dead After Escapees Recaptured (Grenada)

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by lestersails

This post seems to be dichotomizing into people who ignore the problem and people who are "prepared" (which I believe from a number of your prior posts you mean to be a pretty aggressive defensive posture).
There is something in the middle here, which is neither burying one's head in the sand nor making one's boat into a fort. That would be to use some of the recommendations listed by dannc, above, and accept some degree of risk. Recognizing that in the end, part of life is risk and that living one's life as if one is constantly about to be attacked reduces the quality of life. I love to sleep aboard with lots of windows and the gangway open. My head is not in the sand, I am living with the mix of risk and freedom that works for me.

Aggressive defense posture? Most people close and even lock their doors at night. There’s nothing aggressive about that. You choose to put yourself at the mercy of whoever decides to board you and accept whatever faith evil has in store for you. I am ex military and will defend myself as I was taught… with maximum force. That’s still not aggressive, defense never is and it is a universal right of all mankind.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Aggressive defense posture? Most people close and even lock their doors at night. There’s nothing aggressive about that. You choose to put yourself at the mercy of whoever decides to board you and accept whatever faith evil has in store for you. I am ex military and will defend myself as I was taught… with maximum force. That’s still not aggressive, defense never is and it is a universal right of all mankind.

You are missing my point. Entirely.

[ekelly36]

Although I haven't had the opportunity to cruise paradise, I travel frequently to Mexico, and i don't travel to the nice places. It's just something that is hard for a lot of people to understand that when traveling you need to follow the laws of the country you are visiting (or end up in a horrible jail). It almost a no-win situation because even if you are vigilant if someone wants to cause you harm, they will do it. I've driven through some of the worst places in Northern Mexico with my head on a swivel. Very situationally aware, and I'm a pretty big guy but had there been a group of guys wanting to rob me or cause me harm there isn't much I would be able to do. Now thinking about being anchored in a remote area in a foreign country, it's scary.... I think I would feel better for myself and my significant other to be around other people, safety in numbers theory but even then, you can't guarantee safety..... Horrible what has happened. But I think about these kinds of things happening often.....

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Aggressive defense posture? Most people close and even lock their doors at night. There’s nothing aggressive about that. You choose to put yourself at the mercy of whoever decides to board you and accept whatever faith evil has in store for you. I am ex military and will defend myself as I was taught… with maximum force. That’s still not aggressive, defense never is and it is a universal right of all mankind.

Lets just say that not everyone agrees with your universal rights. If you defend yourself, are you then going to the local authorities and explain what happened? Or are you going to quietly dispose of the evidence and sneak off in the night to another island?

My experience is that you have a 50-50 chance of making the wrong decision.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Lets just say that not everyone agrees with your universal rights. If you defend yourself, are you then going to the local authorities and explain what happened? Or are you going to quietly dispose of the evidence and sneak off in the night to another island?

My experience is that you have a 50-50 chance of making the wrong decision.

Defending yourself (especially inside your home or boat where you have nowhere to retreat to) is generally going to be legal. The tools you have available to use (legally) will vary depending on where you are, however.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Defending yourself (especially inside your home or boat where you have nowhere to retreat to) is generally going to be legal. The tools you have available to use (legally) will vary depending on where you are, however.

Exactly. This is why it is an universal right. One can always find cases that are the exception but I find it mind boggling to read that some would opt to sacrifice their life or have their wife raped and killed just because they worry about their legal status when they would…. eek… defend themselves

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exactly. This is why it is an universal right. One can always find cases that are the exception but I find it mind boggling to read that some would opt to sacrifice their life or have their wife raped and killed just because they worry about their legal status when they would…. eek… defend themselves

It kind of leaves Americans at a disadvantage, because some of the other British heritage nations have a different rule from what we grew up with. I grew up in California, where the law was that if the intruder came INTO your home you could, kill him/her if you feared for your life. Where I am now, the rule is that you may not use excessive force to protect property. It is very different, no bleach in the eyes, that's excessive force. No shooting to kill, so the large target midsection is off limits, if you have a gun, which most don't.

The thing is, that as visitors in another nation than our own, we are at a disadvantage twice: from the possible perpetrator; but also from following the rules we learned as children, so we have to learn what's what, every different place we go.

Ann

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It kind of leaves Americans at a disadvantage, because some of the other British heritage nations have a different rule from what we grew up with. I grew up in California, where the law was that if the intruder came INTO your home you could, kill him/her if you feared for your life. Where I am now, the rule is that you may not use excessive force to protect property. It is very different, no bleach in the eyes, that's excessive force. No shooting to kill, so the large target midsection is off limits, if you have a gun, which most don't.

The thing is, that as visitors in another nation than our own, we are at a disadvantage twice: from the possible perpetrator; but also from following the rules we learned as children, so we have to learn what's what, every different place we go.

Ann

Those are all details. Proportional use of force includes lethal force, as long as it is proportional. But this distracts from the core of what I talk about: how one can worry about legalities and do nothing while your wife is being raped and murdered instead of acting in defense… proportionally.

I know I wrote about maximum force before, which is the standard military doctrine, but of course this is only against enemy combatants. When around civilians we were trained in proportional use of force too.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Those are all details. Proportional use of force includes lethal force, as long as it is proportional. But this distracts from the core of what I talk about: how one can worry about legalities and do nothing while your wife is being raped and murdered instead of acting in defense… proportionally.

I know I wrote about maximum force before, which is the standard military doctrine, but of course this is only against enemy combatants. When around civilians we were trained in proportional use of force too.

I think you have answered your own question. If one has forethought, one considers the potential risks and how to respond proportionally to the risk. The training of oneself is of the essence to be able to think rationally when in extremis. Training is the starting point!

At the end of the day, the pendulum always swings between the extremes but spends most of the time in the rightful middle. Sometimes the good guys get killed and the bad guys get away - sometimes the bad guys get killed for no good reason. It is the price we (the good and the bad guys) collectively pay for being able to live in a civilised society. The rule of law never gets it right 100% of the time but as long as it finds the right balance most of the time, it is way better than the alternative(s).

Cruisers are civilians (even the ex military ones) and cruising is a civilian activity, so bringing a military mindset to cruising like it is a war zone out there in cruising land is kind of missing the point.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I think you have answered your own question. If one has forethought, one considers the potential risks and how to respond proportionally to the risk. The training of oneself is of the essence to be able to think rationally when in extremis. Training is the starting point!

At the end of the day, the pendulum always swings between the extremes but spends most of the time in the rightful middle. Sometimes the good guys get killed and the bad guys get away - sometimes the bad guys get killed for no good reason. It is the price we (the good and the bad guys) collectively pay for being able to live in a civilised society. The rule of law never gets it right 100% of the time but as long as it finds the right balance most of the time, it is way better than the alternative(s).

Cruisers are civilians (even the ex military ones) and cruising is a civilian activity, so bringing a military mindset to cruising like it is a war zone out there in cruising land is kind of missing the point.

Security aboard is a core responsibility of the captain and has nothing to do with a military background. Cruisers must grow up and make their safety and security plans: what to do during a fire, a medical emergency, a catastrophic weather event and also when coming under attack from animal or human.

Like I wrote before, you can demand to sleep every night with all hatches and companionway open but it is normal to close and even lock the door and not only in war zones like you insinuate.

All commercial shipping is required to make these plans and to train for it and none of them operate in war zones; it is part of seamanship to be able to handle emergencies.

The rule of law is far away when offshore or even anchored in third world countries as evidenced by events. Same for emergency services. I once witnessed the Grenada coastguard arriving at the scene of rescue 14 hours after the call while their station was in the next bay and my dinghy can do it in 10 minutes.

Take the training courses. My father sent me to judo class when I was six. First aid, fire etc. If you want to be an offshore sailor responsible for boat and crew, it is expected of you.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It kind of leaves Americans at a disadvantage, because some of the other British heritage nations have a different rule from what we grew up with. I grew up in California, where the law was that if the intruder came INTO your home you could, kill him/her if you feared for your life. Where I am now, the rule is that you may not use excessive force to protect property. It is very different, no bleach in the eyes, that's excessive force. No shooting to kill, so the large target midsection is off limits, if you have a gun, which most don't.

The thing is, that as visitors in another nation than our own, we are at a disadvantage twice: from the possible perpetrator; but also from following the rules we learned as children, so we have to learn what's what, every different place we go.

Ann

Great post - I hope it is read. I might amend your post to say that as visitors one is not twice, but thrice disadvantaged. The third would be that you must assume that the host country will err on the side of its own citizens, rather than the visitor, when it comes to assigning blame and meting justice. If it is anywhere close to a close call, the visitor is likelier to end up with the short end of the stick. That is just plain old fashioned human nature.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Great post - I hope it is read. I might amend your post to say that as visitors one is not twice, but thrice disadvantaged. The third would be that you must assume that the host country will err on the side of its own citizens, rather than the visitor, when it comes to assigning blame and meting justice. If it is anywhere close to a close call, the visitor is likelier to end up with the short end of the stick. That is just plain old fashioned human nature.

In this particular instance, "its own citizens" were escaped convicts.

There's a whole lot of handwringing over "What could happen if you defend yourself". Personally, I'll worry about that at a later date.

[Ken Goodings]

Bodies have not been recovered.

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Lets just say that not everyone agrees with your universal rights. If you defend yourself, are you then going to the local authorities and explain what happened? Or are you going to quietly dispose of the evidence and sneak off in the night to another island?

My experience is that you have a 50-50 chance of making the wrong decision.

Self-defense, is the oldest of all human rights. What happens to the remains, is immaterial to the issue, sharks gotta eat too.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

Self-defense, is the oldest of all human rights. What happens to the remains, is immaterial to the issue, sharks gotta eat too.

I think it’s “woke” to deny people the right of self defense, asking them instead to offer their throat to be slit by any criminal who may desire to do so after raping the wife and kids.

I encounter this stance again and again and am completely flabbergasted, even disgusted I think, by it. Even a mouse will put up a defense, it must be a genetic mutation splitting paths in the human evolution. I think I can guess which branch will be the dead end…