Wiring upgrade case study

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by westwon

Hi Stu.


Just a note that most of your hot links aren't working.


Steve

Steve, thx for the note. I just went back and clicked on every single one and they all work. I note that the links go to a half dozen different sites: my C34 forum, Maine Sail's marinehowto, sailboats.com,etc.


While I have heard that sometimes my C34 links don't come through to some folks, most of them have been outside north America.


Perhaps you could try them again, since we're only across the Strait of Georgia from each other!

[westwon]

And a second try worked!


Thanks Stu.


We aren't on opposite sides of the Strait any more either. I brought the old girl back over to the island. Van-Isle is expensive, but SO much better than anything available in Vancouver.


Steve

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

No, it is NOT an OEM Catalina panel, it was replaced with this one.

Without a wiring diagram, no one can answer what the 1-2-B switch is doing.

Photos of wiring without a wiring diagram are useless.

Not sure why you say this is not an OEM panel, it’s got a Catalina logo on it, and looks like panels I’ve seen from other Catalinas. Are you seeing something I’m not? And does it matter?

The picture was to show some of the “features”: multiple switches per breaker, lack of AC isolation, etc. Also, discoloration of some wires, which may not have come out in the picture.

Wiring diagram is in process, but I haven’t had time to map everything out yet. PO described 1-2-B operation as a typical OEM setup, but I haven’t verified as far as tracing all the wires yet.

Hopefully I’ll have at least a partial wiring diagram next trip.

Regarding the battery boxes, do you have any experience with the ones I posted? I’m trying to figure out whether they will really fit, and if they have room to add fuses. And if not, what my alternatives might be.

[smac999]

The ac and dc ground are surposed to be connected. Between the green ac ground (on wall) and dc neg.

Not between black hot ac and dc neg. not sure how you are measuring that.

Since either battery can start the engine based on where the switch is. (When Factory wired and Likely still is) They do not need to be fused. You can fuse them but they need to be big enough to start the engine and never accidentally blow. Which is probably a 250-300a fuse. Which requires 2/0 wire .., and those look like 4 or 2awg. So really there is no way to correctly fuse those wires from battery to switch.

Any small wires on battery need to be


Isn’t that panel opened by a key? Then you can’t touch the ac without a key..., can’t get much safer then needing a key.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Not sure why you say this is not an OEM panel, it’s got a Catalina logo on it, and looks like panels I’ve seen from other Catalinas. Are you seeing something I’m not? And does it matter?

The picture was to show some of the “features”: multiple switches per breaker, lack of AC isolation, etc. Also, discoloration of some wires, which may not have come out in the picture.

Wiring diagram is in process, but I haven’t had time to map everything out yet. PO described 1-2-B operation as a typical OEM setup, but I haven’t verified as far as tracing all the wires yet.

Hopefully I’ll have at least a partial wiring diagram next trip.

Regarding the battery boxes, do you have any experience with the ones I posted? I’m trying to figure out whether they will really fit, and if they have room to add fuses. And if not, what my alternatives might be.

It's not OEM because Catalina simply never made hinged electrical panels. They also did not build the switch locations per your first photo - what they did was line everything up in two rows, not staggered. It also wasn't until much later that they ever installed electrical gauges - can't tell whether yours is a voltmeter or ammeter without further inspecting your photo - it'd be easier for you to simply mention it. Catalina Direct sells panels with the Catalina logo, so that's not an indicator. And no, it really doesn't matter, but you did ask.


Good luck with the wiring diagram. It is the first thing I have done with all three of my Catalinas, and each of them came with a very good Catalina manual.


I've had 38 years of experience with Catalinas of my own: C22 1983-87, C25 1987-1998, C34 1998 - present. I have been the Secretary of the C34IA since 1999. I know the full range of Catalina boats and have been on most of them.


The battery compartments are just that: a place to put batteries IN BATTERY BOXES. For your own safety. Please stop shooting the messenger and being in denial about the need to use boxes.


And since you're doing what thousands of C30 owners have done in the past, i.e., rewiring your fine vessel, are you aware of the C30 website and a newer IO group? You can most likely get a C30 manual for the year of your particular boat that way if you don't have one already.
www.catalina30.com
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30
There are also many, many more Catalina 30 owners than here at https://sbo.sailboatowners.com/recent-fx.php It is simply the nature of the makeup of the two very fine forums.


Good luck.

[DanielI]

Thanks for the reply. And I am absolutely not trying to shoot the messenger, I really appreciate the message. I made two assumptions that I’m happy to be corrected on: the panel is not so important, but good to know; the battery compartment is something I need to take care of.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Good luck with the wiring diagram. It is the first thing I have done with all three of my Catalinas, and each of them came with a very good Catalina manual.

Mine also came with the manual, but I know certain things are not what is actually in the boat. As expected, I guess.

Once I’ve got the wiring mapped, I can plan my next steps.

The battery compartments are just that: a place to put batteries IN BATTERY BOXES. For your own safety. Please stop shooting the messenger and being in denial about the need to use boxes.

Let me clarify: I absolutely intend to put in boxes. What I’m not sure of is how. Catalina Direct sells boxes they claim will fit in the compartment, all the other boxes I’ve seen are too big. I’m concerned if they will also hold the fuses which I believe should be there. If not, I’m not sure what my options are.

I am aware of some of the other forums, and I’ve been active recently on the IC30A group. I don’t have time to read all the rest, but I’ve dipped in.

[CharlieJ]

The load side of each of the single pole circuit breakers that feeds the line side of the switches that constitute load centers is drastically undersized. You need to increase wire size to match the ampacity of the circuit breaker.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Thanks for the reply. And I am absolutely not trying to shoot the messenger, I really appreciate the message. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let me clarify: I absolutely intend to put in boxes. What I’m not sure of is how. Catalina Direct sells boxes they claim will fit in the compartment, all the other boxes I’ve seen are too big. I’m concerned if they will also hold the fuses which I believe should be there. If not, I’m not sure what my options are.

I am aware of some of the other forums, and I’ve been active recently on the IC30A group. I don’t have time to read all the rest, but I’ve dipped in.

All of my Catalinas have had room for boxes. You might try asking on the C30 - specific forums about just this issue, because it IS a boat-specific issue. It would be too much to get into a discussion of the dimensions and your proposed battery type, build, and size, because that's your issue. But two 4Ds wouldn't fit in my battery compartment either, so we use different size batteries - just for example.


The fuses don't have to physically be within the box, you put a bus bar close by, and run short wires to the bank if that's the only way, physically, or you put the fuses on the posts of the battery, I think they call them MBRFs.


Good luck.

[alaskanviking]

i am also doing working on pulling out all my old electrical cabling.

some resources and tips;

https://www.pysystems.ca/
Jeff Cote and Pacific Yacht systems is one of the best resources you can get. he explains things in a way that's easy to understand. there is tons of resources on his site, and he has a very active youtube channel. watch his videos on what NOT to do, and make sure you dont do that.

https://marinehowto.com/
used to be called compass marine or P-base. also a tone of resources. read his articles on connectors and what not to do's

https://shop.pkys.com/
a good resource for parts. they have a lot of Victron components that you can necessarily get elsewhere easily. they are also a blue seas distributer. Defender is also a good place to get stuff but i generally get my Victron stuff here.

Victron website
has a good ebook on marine/rv electrical systems and a forum that is very helpful figuring stuff out.

Nasa Standard 8739.4A - Workmanship Standard for crimping, interconnecting cables, harnesses and wiring. this is for aircraft and aerospace however as far as electrical connectors and wiring there isn't much of a difference between aerospace and marine wiring. vibrations and movement, hull flexing, heat and cold, danger of fire oat at sea isn't much different to fire while flying or in space ect. If you follow these standards you are ahead of the game. Jeff Cote and Marinehow-to.com, ABYC standards have a lot in common with what is called for in this document. i couldn't attach the file to this as its too big. last revision is 2016 i believe.

ABYC E11 AC and DC ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS ON BOATS. remember that this is a minimum standard for boat wiring. they are recommendations, you don't have to follow them but your insurance company and surveyor will probably not make your life happy if you don't. you can always exceed these standards however with the price of marine gear there needs to be a balance. I tend to over do it on Safety, Navigation or "Function" items. the ABYC standards don't update as fast as technology does. as an example I will use a toroidal isolation transformer from Bridgeport magnetics or victron without an issue however they don't comply with the current ABYC standards as they don't have a grounded shield between coils. there are similar items that don't fit the standards which will be changed in a future revisions. i mention this because you can also run afoul of a surveyor that rigidly follows the standards which could hinder you. be aware that when you look for this document online there are older versions out there, so make sure you get the latest copy you can.

TIPs;
label all wiring and in multiple places along its length. its worth the time and money to invent in one of those shrink tube label makers. put clear shrink over it if you can. at least the two end labels. this is the biggest thing to help you not lose your mind while troubleshooting down the road. label the ends, and put a label in areas or junctions that it passes that are easy to get to. label on both sides of any terminal block.

use good connectors. DO NOT USE cheap auto connectors!!! get amphenol or TE connectors, you can buy in bulk at several places. avoid west marine at all cost. i don't mind Ancor products, but they have a high markup on them, and west marine is 3 time's the price anywhere else. Amphenol or TE and other industrial connectors are used in aircraft and aerospace and have a consistent quality that is expected to meet specific standards. anytime you dont plan your system and go to west marine to grab a part it just ends up making your budget unnecessarily skyrocket. i think we all have this issue when we need something to work now, and I've been learning patience and making myself wait 3 days for parts to come in.

Wiring - Ancor used to be the only game in town for marine tinned fine stranded wire. there has been more and more manufacturers bringing tinned marine wire into their product catalogs. I like Pacer wire as its reasonably priced and you can get the thicker cables in more colors than red and black. i was having trouble finding green 6 guage for bonding and grounds when i stumbled onto them. things like inverters need a ground cable that is as thick as your power cable, so its nice to be able to have access to those colors in large gauge cable sizes. they also have striped color wires for primary wire, which helps with your schematics and identifying wires. a sea of red and black works when they're labeled but those labels fade, wires get repurposed ect... note you don't need tinned wire as per ABYC recommendation's, HOWEVER I have seen over the years the differences between and its 100% worth your time and money to get the tinned. our Patrol boats use the cheapest bidder as usual for government stuff. cheap auto wire and auto connectors. we mainly troubleshoot electrical gremlins. I have seen how fast water can wick up wire and corrode it. my boat is almost 30 and the wire is stranded but its thick strands and inflexible, more like house wiring. its untinned so the corrosion has crept along its length quite a distance. it may take a little while but if you try to just get by with untinned you will regret it someday, probably with a bilge pump.

refrain from "just making it work". its hard i know. take the time, do it right and order the correct parts. that includes routing the cables, fusing them, labeling them. 99% of the time you don't need that stuff. but that 1% gets you when you aren't ready for it or cant afford it, or not there ect. the more work you spend on doing things right means you can make repairs and get back on the water quicker, or your boat doesn't burn down ect. if you do "just make it work, ill do it right later" just make sure you know that that seldom works, that can will always just keep getting kicked down the road and you just end up with a spaghettis mess of wires and poor connections ready to burn your boat down. easier to force yourself to do it right in the first place, even if that screws up your summer plans a bit.

pay attention to grounds! for marine electrical the DC ground and AC ground are kept separate however both are connected to the engine block. there are some issues here and i recommend looking into an isolation transformer (victron/bridgeport magnetics/Charles) or a galvanic isolator. size grounds correctly, things like inverters need a ground cable that is as thick as your power cable. so 4/0 power cable, needs a 4/0 ground. if you don't wire your grounds correctly you can shock a swimmer that is by your boat or eat up your zink's fast.

the importance of fuses and circuit breakers. fuses and circuit breaks protect the wire downstream of it. it doesn't protect the wire before it. i.e. if a wire breaks before a fuse and shorts out there is no fuse to pop and you probably have a fire. your batteries should have a fuse within 7" of the battery terminal. this isn't easy to accomplish sometimes. do your best. There are fuses that go on the battery terminal. likewise keep the wires connecting to a terminal to a minimum 2-3 is the rule i believe (follow Jeff Cote's recommendations in this regard). preference should be cable from battery to fuse, and fuse to Busbar, and connect to the busbar what you want to connect to the battery. easier is to use the bus bars that are integrated with fuses so every connection to it is fused. if that makes your battery cable a little longer than 7" so be it, but remember what the purpose of having a fuse so close to the battery is.

invest in good electrical tools. don't buy the cheap crimpers from home depot. even some of the Ancor tools are not worth it. marinehowto.com has good information on tooling, especially the battery cable terminals. he cuts through the connector after a crimp so you can see how well the crimp is. the tools he recommends almost cold forge the copper.

Hope this helps

[DanielI]

My first discover: I got an assortment pack of terminals, and my smallest ring terminal is a #10. I also got a 20A Blue Sea terminal block, but the largest terminal it holds is a #6. Frustrating, because I need to mail order new stuff and it won’t be here this trip, but I would say live and learn except for one weird observation.

Am I missing something, or all these terminal blocks all undersized? For example, the smallest Ancor ring terminal for 16 AWG is #8, but that wire is too small for even 20A. So why is the smallest block that it can go on 30A? In general, it seems like one needs a 30A or even 65A just to be physically large enough to accommodate typical ring terminal sizes, even though the wires in questions are never going to be asked to handle that much current. Or am I missing something?

[CharlieJ]

@alaskanviking #24:
Excellent synopsis of how to install wiring on a boat. Well done!

[Spot]

Originally Posted by DanielI

My first discover: I got an assortment pack of terminals, and my smallest ring terminal is a #10. I also got a 20A Blue Sea terminal block, but the largest terminal it holds is a #6. Frustrating, because I need to mail order new stuff and it won’t be here this trip, but I would say live and learn except for one weird observation.

Am I missing something, or all these terminal blocks all undersized? For example, the smallest Ancor ring terminal for 16 AWG is #8, but that wire is too small for even 20A. So why is the smallest block that it can go on 30A? In general, it seems like one needs a 30A or even 65A just to be physically large enough to accommodate typical ring terminal sizes, even though the wires in questions are never going to be asked to handle that much current. Or am I missing something?

Wires are sized for the circuit, terminals are sized for both for wire size and stud size. Anchor 16-14 AWG heat shrink ring terminals go up to 3/8" stud size but the wire in the terminal is still 16 or 14 AWG and subject to capacity based on that wire gauge, length of round-trip circuit, and allowable voltage drop to supply the device and meet 'code' (ABYC or CFR in the US). The blocks themselves need to support any and all current running though them.

#8 studs and 8 AWG wire are not the same thing.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by DanielI

My first discover: I got an assortment pack of terminals, and my smallest ring terminal is a #10. I also got a 20A Blue Sea terminal block, but the largest terminal it holds is a #6. Frustrating, because I need to mail order new stuff and it won’t be here this trip, but I would say live and learn except for one weird observation.

Am I missing something, or all these terminal blocks all undersized? For example, the smallest Ancor ring terminal for 16 AWG is #8, but that wire is too small for even 20A. So why is the smallest block that it can go on 30A? In general, it seems like one needs a 30A or even 65A just to be physically large enough to accommodate typical ring terminal sizes, even though the wires in questions are never going to be asked to handle that much current. Or am I missing something?

I hear your frustration on this. Since none of my circuits use more than about 3A, I thought the 20A terminal strips would be what I needed, but then struggled to find #6 ring terminals for them. I found some off-brand ones, but still had to file down the sides of the rings to make them fit the terminal strip, and didn't want to do a whole boat that way.

I did have enough space for the larger terminal strips, so I ended up going with the 30A ones which use #8 terminals that were easy to find. Which wasn't a bad thing since if there's any boat-yoga involved in the installation, those #6 screws on the 20A ones are a bit small and fiddly.

[goboatingnow]

I should add that stranded tinned wire had been around a long time in the electronics business. Long before “ anchor “ discovered it.

Also considered tinned thin wall auto wire , the insulation reflects the lower voltage and takes up less space in a harness though this is less of an issue on boats

I too avoid the red yellow and blue insulated crimped terminals primarily because the strain relief is so poor. But sometimes it is all you can get. I replace them with correct fittings as soon as I can.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Great story about battery acid. I think I'll save it for when the next joker asks.
No, it is NOT an OEM Catalina panel, it was replaced with this one.
Without a wiring diagram, no one can answer what the 1-2-B switch is doing.
Photos of wiring without a wiring diagram are useless.

Hey Stu, fiberglass isn't resistant to battery acid? Aren't there large fiberglass battery boxes sold out there? Or am I having a brain fart?