US Split-Phase to EU Heat Pump Not Working

[quantumh]

Hi, I've ordered and received an advanced heat pump from Jiangsu Micoe in Red China. It is a full inverter-driven air-to-Water heat pump, IOW the fan motor, compressor, etc, are all PWM driven. The power supply takes in line voltage and immediately converts it to DC for moderation by the controller.

It is designed for the EU market which of course has 230v on one line, neutral on another, and ground on the third. I am in the US where of course we have split-phase 240v with ground, which I thought in theory should power this machine just fine. Unfortunately it does not. I turn on the outdoor cutoff switch, and nothing. Nothing on the indoor display as well.

I've tested the voltage to it and indeed it is 240vAC. I've been without house heat through two Winters and sure would like to get this thing running. I've considered buying an EU-to-US isolation transformer, but would have to run it backwards which seems dicey, and I question whether it would help.

Engineering manual.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by quantumh

Hi, I've ordered and received an advanced heat pump from Jiangsu Micoe in Red China. It is a full inverter-driven air-to-Water heat pump, IOW the fan motor, compressor, etc, are all PWM driven. The power supply takes in line voltage and immediately converts it to DC for moderation by the controller.

It is designed for the EU market which of course has 230v on one line, neutral on another, and ground on the third. I am in the US where of course we have split-phase 240v with ground, which I thought in theory should power this machine just fine. Unfortunately it does not. I turn on the outdoor cutoff switch, and nothing. Nothing on the indoor display as well.

I've tested the voltage to it and indeed it is 240vAC. I've been without house heat through two Winters and sure would like to get this thing running. I've considered buying an EU-to-US isolation transformer, but would have to run it backwards which seems dicey, and I question whether it would help.

Engineering manual.

You’re on the wrong forum, this is for cruising sailboats, not houses.

But no, an isolation transformer won’t work either.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by quantumh

Hi, I've ordered and received an advanced heat pump from Jiangsu Micoe in Red China. It is a full inverter-driven air-to-Water heat pump, IOW the fan motor, compressor, etc, are all PWM driven. The power supply takes in line voltage and immediately converts it to DC for moderation by the controller.

It is designed for the EU market which of course has 230v on one line, neutral on another, and ground on the third. I am in the US where of course we have split-phase 240v with ground, which I thought in theory should power this machine just fine. Unfortunately it does not. I turn on the outdoor cutoff switch, and nothing. Nothing on the indoor display as well.

I've tested the voltage to it and indeed it is 240vAC. I've been without house heat through two Winters and sure would like to get this thing running. I've considered buying an EU-to-US isolation transformer, but would have to run it backwards which seems dicey, and I question whether it would help.

Engineering manual.

Many of the boats I work on have European electrical systems in a North American electrical grid. I have never seen any piece of equipment that could not handle the “2 hot” system. (Not to say it can not happen especially if the design was using the ground wire for something other than what it was intended for.)

BUT….

Some pieces of equipment designed expressly for the European market can have their electronic control circuitry immediately and permanently damaged by connecting them to 60Hz AC instead of 50 Hz.

Are you SURE this is not the issue? Is the piece of gear you have rated for 220-240VAC 50/60 Hz?

[quantumh]

Well I am as sure as is possible with the information I have. This is a full inverter heat pump, meaning all incoming power is converted to DC, and the motors (fan, compressor) are driven by PWM.


A transformer is a transformer, and should work forward and backward.


I am just trying to find an EE to run this by, wherever I can.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by quantumh

Well I am as sure as is possible with the information I have. This is a full inverter heat pump, meaning all incoming power is converted to DC, and the motors (fan, compressor) are driven by PWM.


A transformer is a transformer, and should work forward and backward.


I am just trying to find an EE to run this by, wherever I can.

You apparently don’t want to hear that electronics designed to run on 50Hz might not work at all on 60 Hz. In fact can be irreparably damaged.

Your simplistic analysis in thinking that it is only a simple coil wound transformer and therefore immune to differences is frequency is wrong.

The document you posted clearly indicates this equipment is rated for use at 50 Hz. You plug it into a 60Hz power supply and it doesn’t work. What’s the surprise?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Many of the boats I work on have European electrical systems in a North American electrical grid. I have never seen any piece of equipment that could not handle the “2 hot” system. (Not to say it can not happen especially if the design was using the ground wire for something other than what it was intended for.)

Most stuff should be indeed fine when connected to two hot wires. In fact, parts of Europe were once wired that way, with 220V actually being composed of two live 110V lines. That is why the Schuko plug is not polarised.
So most stuff does not care about live and neutral, just about the difference between both.

Some pieces of equipment designed expressly for the European market can have their electronic control circuitry immediately and permanently damaged by connecting them to 60Hz AC instead of 50 Hz.

Are you SURE this is not the issue? Is the piece of gear you have rated for 220-240VAC 50/60 Hz?

A Air-water heat pump is one thing I would not buy of the internet. We have a similar unit heating our house (and it works fine) but we bought it from a local heating firm, asking them what they suggested. Means that if there is an issue we have someone we can call, who will come and fix it.

One thing that can be an issue is that many units that have been built for the European market actually require a three phase hookup.

The other thing is that maybe the unit you have just doesn't work...

[quantumh]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

You apparently don’t want to hear that electronics designed to run on 50Hz might not work at all on 60 Hz. In fact can be irreparably damaged.

Your simplistic analysis in thinking that it is only a simple coil wound transformer and therefore immune to differences is frequency is wrong.

The document you posted clearly indicates this equipment is rated for use at 50 Hz. You plug it into a 60Hz power supply and it doesn’t work. What’s the surprise?

Well, SailingHarmonie, denigrating another user and finger-waggling is unfriendly and hostile -- I've made clear I am not asking for input from the Peanut Gallery.

Yes a simple coil-wound transformer will work both ways. It's not magickal, it's electromagnetics. And an inverter-type power supply (actually, a de-inverter-type) converts AC into DC... for all functions. There are only two cases where 50Hz vs 60Hz may be an issue: timekeeping, and where motors are directly AC-driven (not the case here).


Vent your exhaust and frustrations elsewhere.

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Most stuff should be indeed fine when connected to two hot wires. In fact, parts of Europe were once wired that way, with 220V actually being composed of two live 110V lines. That is why the Schuko plug is not polarised.
So most stuff does not care about live and neutral, just about the difference between both.

Indeed, correct.

Originally Posted by K_V_B

A Air-water heat pump is one thing I would not buy of the internet. We have a similar unit heating our house (and it works fine) but we bought it from a local heating firm, asking them what they suggested. Means that if there is an issue we have someone we can call, who will come and fix it.

I took a chance and saved a bundle, and this is intended as a test-bed for a housing development I am in the process of building. I'm old enough to know that I own this problem and am used to taking risks for the sake of advancement, as I'm a progressive developer. I have a long and deep background in tech and electronics, and it looks like I am on my own on this one.

Originally Posted by K_V_B

One thing that can be an issue is that many units that have been built for the European market actually require a three phase hookup.

The other thing is that maybe the unit you have just doesn't work...

I made sure to buy the flavor that is not three-phase. I will try to get a schematic from the manufacturer. Worst case, a US==>EU transformer.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by quantumh

Worst case, a US==>EU transformer.

I have already told you that when a 230V 50Hz unit doesn’t work on 240V 60Hz then it’s not gonna work with a transformer either, regardless of you feed the transformer with 120V 60Hz or 240V 60Hz.

[Montanan]

Typically, the considerable add on power conversion to make it compatible for deriving 230 Volt single phase, 50 Hz supply are not worth the bother.

Recommend to just purchase a heat pump which is compatible with the power source of your building and let the ASHP's rectifier and ECM then process as it was designed to.

It is intended to be a plug and play heat pump.

China makes lot's of ASHP that would be compatible with North American power sources, if you feel compelled to import such but will be much better to just source from established HVAC OEMs here in the States.

You will benefit from aftermarket warranty, service and parts if you purchase from the correct source.

[quantumh]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I have already told you that when a 230V 50Hz unit doesn’t work on 240V 60Hz then it’s not gonna work with a transformer either, regardless of you feed the transformer with 120V 60Hz or 240V 60Hz.

You have already what what what? The trouble is you just do not know what you are talking about when it comes to electronics, "Jedi".


I have already told you the nature of the conVERsion going on here but you are a) Unable to understand that I was seeking to communicate with individuals educated in the subject at hand, and b) Unable to understand what happens to the signal in a switching power supply.


Look, I have my problem solved now. Mods please close this thread, and I am unsubbing.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by quantumh

You have already what what what? The trouble is you just do not know what you are talking about when it comes to electronics, "Jedi".


I have already told you the nature of the conVERsion going on here but you are a) Unable to understand that I was seeking to communicate with individuals educated in the subject at hand, and b) Unable to understand what happens to the signal in a switching power supply.


Look, I have my problem solved now. Mods please close this thread, and I am unsubbing.

Bless your heart Q

[CharlieJ]

OP:
If the equipment will operate on 60Hz the solution is to use L1 and L2 for 240VAC. There is not enough info to tell you how to accomplish that.

But i have often wired a 230VAC Euro boat for USA 240VAC split phase by bringing L1, L2 and G aboard. L1 (black) > L (brown), L2 (red) > neutral (blue), G (green) > G (green w/yellow stripe). I caution the owner about the 60Hz/50Hz issue. You can use this as a guide.

OK, I re-read your original post and it does appear that this is how you wired it.

That said, Sailing Harmonie's response may be abrupt and a bit rude but the info he provides is correct. One of my clients has a combo washer/dryer that when fed 240VAC 60Hz through an error code. Corrected this by installing a small Victron inverter/charger and selecting 50Hz. Works fine.

[Madehn]

I agree bless his little ol heart. Send a note to the Chinese manufacturer. They are known by all of the knowledgeable consumers for their high service levels. 😀😀😀

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I have already told you that when a 230V 50Hz unit doesn’t work on 240V 60Hz then it’s not gonna work with a transformer either, regardless of you feed the transformer with 120V 60Hz or 240V 60Hz.

Jedi, we can keep saying that, but he “knows” that 50 and 60 hertz are no different, and won’t listen to anything to the contrary. For some reason he thinks that he has a simple coil wound transformer, and doesn’t realize that it has a sophisticated electronic control that IS frequency sensitive.

He came here asking for help, when he is told what he wants to do won’t work he gets all annoyed at the messengers.

Now he has taken his toys and gone home, because you don’t know anything about electronics

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by quantumh

Look, I have my problem solved now. Mods please close this thread, and I am unsubbing.

Nope we won't be closing this thread because the advice you have received is correct, even if you don't like it. Also since Google will catalogue the thread it will be available to others in the future who are also struggling with a similar problem and it does crop up regularly.

Pete

English Moderator