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Old 10-01-2021, 14:29   #1
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Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

After spending a few weeks researching 48V options and carefully measuring a bunch of areas on the new boat to decide where to fit the 48V parallel battery bank, I finally dug into the electrical panel itself, and found the boat to be a split-phase electrical system, which is new to me (our current boat is just a braindead 2x30 amp setup, with nothing 240 whatsoever). I did a bunch of reading and now (theoretically) understand what all the different common shore power converters do to fill in split-phase power systems, depending on what you have to work with. And now I think that's pushing me away from bothering with a 48V system, due to what appears to be a definite need for two inverters.

It appears that, to encompass 100% of the boat's power needs through an inverter system (let's please not argue here whether this is a good idea or not -- I agree with Slowboat, I've decided it is, I'm willing to pay for it, and I'm going with it, and just trying to find the best way to do it), given the split-phase nature, I need to basically just split my system into two independent 120V legs, and invert from there. So, get two 50KVA Quattros, and put the Red+Neutral+Green wires from both the genset and the shore power line to one, and then the Black+Neutral+Green wires from both sources to the other one. Thereby, regardless of generator (12kW) or shore power, you'll get up to 50 amps per leg through each inverter. I can just plug the gens into AC In 2 and lock it to 50 amps, and then plug the shore power lines into AC In 1, and quickly adjust those through the control panel based on what dock setup I've plugged into (1x50/240, 2x30/120, 1x30/120).

This setup will then let me use the powerassist feature to augment anything needed through the house battery bank when on a limited shore power setup. The one major downside feels like the inability to just join all of the 120VAC together to just have one large 100 amp AC panel, and so I have to keep the split panels and try to even out potential load between them. This is fine on 50 amp and mostly on 2x30, but if I'm splitting one 30, this seems like it's going to result in me hating life. Is there some way using an autotransformer or something to just always merge the output 120 legs and have one big 100A 120VAC panel?

Secondarily, the one and only actual 240VAC item on the boat is an old watermaker. While I might just solve the problem by upgrading it to the nice 12V unit we bought this summer for our old boat (since I assume having a watermaker on our Meridian 408 doesn't materially affect its resale value, I should probably just steal it off there before selling), is there some way to set up the two inverters to always output 180-phase-offset loads, so that I can still reassemble the two legs into a 240VAC source for the watermaker? I can't find anything about phase-offset-ness. When the inverters are acting as straight passthrough systems on generator power, I'm assuming that they'll pass through the offset legs and it will "just work", but I'm nervous about what happens with powerassist enabled and whatnot.
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Old 10-01-2021, 15:43   #2
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

There is not a reasonable way to turn 50A 240V into 100A 120V.

An auto transformer would allow you to use a single 240V inverter/charger and then split that output to two balanced 120V legs without having to use two 120V units (I posted before that I prefer the two units), but pay attention to how much imbalance the autotransformer can handle.

You can pair two 120V units and configure them to invert 180 degrees out of phase from each other to provide 240V.

https://shop.pkys.com/Setting-up-par...ers_b_161.html
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Old 10-01-2021, 15:59   #3
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Thanks for the link! That answers my question about how to set up the two Quattros in that configuration for safe split phase operation for sure.

I was reading more about autotransformers earlier today, and it seems like it's designed to be able to even out usage between two input 110 legs to solve basically exactly that basic balancing problem. However, I'm guessing that if the legs are 180 out of phase, it no longer functions in that balancing capacity.

So it appears I get to decide between safely-split-phase 240 availability or balanced 120 availability. Maybe if I keep this old watermaker I'll just fork off the generator input line directly, since that's realistically the only way I'd ever run it, and then run the two quattros + an autotransformer in balance mode...
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Old 10-01-2021, 20:56   #4
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

If the 2 victrons are set up normally for split phase. You can not feed a singe 120v 30a. Both inverters will just invert as they will be looking for 240v to switch over to charge

You can however set them up a special way so they ignore each other. And you can feed 120v 30a to one inverter. And the 2nd inverter will always invert. (Creating 240 split phase. Half from shore and half from inverter)

If the total loads are under 30a ac. One will be charging and one will be inverting. But the net will bE charging. If you are drawing more then 30a. You are esesebtly boosting and draining batteries.

The one inverter is set to 30a shore. And since all 30a goes through 1 inverter. The measuring and boosting functions work.

When you run the gen or use 240v input. Both will charge

If you did set the whole boat up For 120v only. You still can not split that 30a to both inverters. There would no way to set the shore size on each inverter You would never have 15a equal to each one. And the boosting can not work. And dock breakers will always blow.


The auto transformer will balance out the 120v loads from the 240v output of 2 inverters. That is it’s intended purpose.

If you did not need to run single 120v into the boat. The easiest would be a single 230v victron inverter feeding an isotransformer. But this can never take in single 120v cord. It would take the dual 30’s or 50a
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Old 10-01-2021, 21:00   #5
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Essentially the whole boat is 120, aside from the watermaker.

The inverters would both be 120vac inverters, not 240vac ones, and would only be set up to pull one of the two hot leads from the (usually-240vac) input each, for 120vac per inverter. Usual 30->50 adapters simply run the 30 amp down both hot leads of the 50 amp line, so it would feed both 120VAC inverters with the same hot lead. So, if you kept total input below 30 amps, that should work fine. The question is whether you can limit the total input to 30 amps or less between the two units. Slowboat's blog post suggests you can set each unit to max at 13 amps, so it should solve that case. It doesn't solve the 20 amp input case, though.
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Old 10-01-2021, 21:09   #6
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayH View Post
There is not a reasonable way to turn 50A 240V into 100A 120V.

An auto transformer would allow you to use a single 240V inverter/charger and then split that output to two balanced 120V legs without having to use two 120V units (I posted before that I prefer the two units), but pay attention to how much imbalance the autotransformer can handle.

You can pair two 120V units and configure them to invert 180 degrees out of phase from each other to provide 240V.

https://shop.pkys.com/Setting-up-par...ers_b_161.html

2 120v inverters creating 240 volt feeding an isotransformer would be no different then a single 240v inverter feeding one.

With 2 120v inverters I’m not sure you really need to be worried about balancing though. Either inverter would Likly just start boosting to make up any difference over the shore power size. While other one still charges if under shore size. Or maybe both would stop charging if one line exceeded shore size. In which case the autotransformer would help. Not sure.
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Old 10-01-2021, 21:27   #7
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

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Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
With 2 120v inverters I’m not sure you really need to be worried about balancing though. Either inverter would Likly just start boosting to make up any difference over the shore power size. While other one still charges if under shore size. Or maybe both would stop charging if one line exceeded shore size. In which case the autotransformer would help. Not sure.
That's kinda what I was thinking. It's a little awkward since everything's doing a little extra work, but it probably comes close to balancing out, with the charger side mostly countering the boosting from the other side. I was thinking about just not bothering at all with the autotransformer and just using the two quattros in parallel mode and calling it good.
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Old 10-01-2021, 21:39   #8
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
If the 2 victrons are set up normally for split phase. You can not feed a singe 120v 30a. Both inverters will just invert as they will be looking for 240v to switch over to charge

You can however set them up a special way so they ignore each other. And you can feed 120v 30a to one inverter. And the 2nd inverter will always invert. (Creating 240 split phase. Half from shore and half from inverter)

If the total loads are under 30a ac. One will be charging and one will be inverting. But the net will bE charging. If you are drawing more then 30a. You are esesebtly boosting and draining batteries.

The one inverter is set to 30a shore. And since all 30a goes through 1 inverter. The measuring and boosting functions work.
Note I that did this on a 240v rv that wanted to plug into single 15a outlet Sometimes. Feed 15a into one quatro and set to 15a. Could run whole rv like this.
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Old 11-01-2021, 23:17   #9
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

I'm in the process of doing something similar. This is based off of work from S/V Jedi, in several other forums. The switch schematics come from a technician at bridgeport magnetics. You can do this with just one transformer instead of two

I needed to run a 5hp scuba compressor. This part has changed since 2019, as I'm now using a 5hp 3ph motor with a VFD for the easy start feature. Reduces the starting amp load considerably. Just tested, so this works. I have to get a clamp ammeter to verify actual power draw, and I'm picking up a different 5hp motor with higher RPM to match the stock motor.

So this was put together so the shore power feeds into the isolation transformer using a switch to select voltage. Custom wired transformer from bridgeport magnetics has leads for all the different voltages available in the US and globally in theory. Isolation transformer has set 240v output.

240v from transformer to 240v quattro or multiplus inverter charger. No neutral just the two hot leads. For generator wire it 240 I to the quattro. A later revision had generator to a switch into a multiplus. I'm using a 5k inverter charger for the scuba compressor.

Inverter charger 240v is wired to victron auto transformer, no neutral and only the two floating hot leads. This fully balances both 120v legs so you can use full power across either leg with out popping a breaker. So if I have 2 30amp cables coming in I can use 60 amps on one leg if I plugged enough stuff in. theorietical and in reality I set things so I can't pull full amps from shore power.
In your setup your limited on each leg to the size of 1 inverter/charger. So you can only have a max combo of ac load of 3000 watts for a 3k inverter charger. So a heat gun, and wife's curling iron could possibly trip the breaker.

The 2 hot leads and neutral come from the output of the auto transformer, which is then wired to the breaker panel with 2 split legs of 120v. The inverter charger will boost voltage slightly and can tap into the batteries if I need a bit more power, say I was starting a 28amp scuba compressor (14amp @ 240v)

I'm using two isolation transformers and the 100amp auto transformer with a 5k inverter charger. This lets me get close to using the full 12000wtts available from a 50amp 240v shore power cable. However the benefit is I can plug in a 1 50a 120v, 1 or 2 30 amp cables, or 1 or 2 230v euro cables 16amp or 32 amp, depending on what's available and always get my 240 output balanced across the cables. Another added benefit is I can wire adapters so I take a 4 wire 240v 50amp shore power into a 3 wire 50a 120v cable, for a lighter cable setup. This setup is a bit more complicated but makes the system more flexible globally theoretically.

In your setup you could in theory wire the auto transformer before the inverter chargers to balance the shore power or generator load but I don't think you would get the same effect of balancing the loads from your inverter chargers. In theory you could connect the neutrals of the inverter chargers and float the 2 hot wires to an auto transformer but I haven't looking into this wiring or the manuals to know if that's a functional option. 2 inverters do add some redundancy, but cost more than a single 240v charger. Keep in mind two 120v inverter chargers set to split phase can fail, or reset, and you must ensure you reprogram correctly before reconnecting to your panel. It's been over a year since I looked into the manuals and wiring diagrams figuring this stuff out so I victim would be better help with that setup. I was thinking thay way two before I stumbled into the S/V Jedi way, and talked to bridgeport magnetics.

If you sized things down some say to pull from 2 30amp cables you could switch to 1 isolation charger, the smaller auto transformer, and easier wiring for less cost. Victron has nice isolation transformers including an auto voltage one, but they did not have the capacity. The other brands were too small, too expensive, or too big.

In Test running the VFD i found other advantages with this setup. The vfd can be setup to lower the HZ to drop power or can increase HZ up to 120hz (double) for a power boost. I can wire it up to a speed knob so I can drop to say 80% when at anchor, and boost to 120% when engine/gen is running. The easy start will let it run off a 30amp shore power connection or batteries with a big enough bank. Very promising, I may go with a 3ph motor for a water maker or any other large ac motor for the same reasons. A wash down pump that can be boosted when you need a little extra oomph would be nice.

I haven't refined these files in over a year, there has been changed, and updates I haven't put down on paper fully yet. I put it together after much consultation of the manuals, and conversations with victron and bridgeport magnetics. Use it as a reference if you want, but make sure the wiring will match your system. I'm not responsible for any damages or injury if you do this and don't understand the systems or set something up incorrectly. Vedrfolnir_Shorepower-AC system wiring-equip detail-Jan2019.pdfVedrfolnir_Shorepower-AC system wiring diagram-switch-27NOV2019.pdfClick image for larger version

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Old 11-01-2021, 23:22   #10
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

The problem with that setup is that I can't run off a single 20 or 30 amp line. That's what's dragging me back to the dual 120V inverters.
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Old 12-01-2021, 21:31   #11
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

You can run off a single 30amp line with this set up. The switch for the isolation transformer selects the winding for voltage, 120, 208, or 240.

Use a 240v 4 wire inlet with an adapter to single 30amp or 50amp 120v cables.

Let's you input any voltage or cable. Could even make an adapter for those funky 100amp plugs if you wanted.
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Old 12-01-2021, 21:43   #12
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Ah okay. What product is that isolation transformer you're using? The Victron ones that are switchable only support up to 16 amps.
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Old 12-01-2021, 22:19   #13
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Currently I have a 50amp 4wire 240v inlet. Have an adapter and cable connected for 50amp 120v, only uses L1, N, and G. Have another adapter that connects 50amp 120v to 30amp cable. Depending on what's available for shore power sockets, I can take it.

Primary plan is to get 240v power to the boat. I'm less concerned about the amperage. The higher voltage is more efficient and halves the amps through the wire. (120v 10amps is ~ 240v 5 amps). This means less resistance in the inlet plug connection, and reduced chance of fire.

In reality I have found higher voltage to be a couple percent more efficient which while minor does help bring a little more voltage through. The victron inverter charges also boost voltage a little. This makes your system more durable against voltage drops from bad shore power wiring.

Secondary plan is to test 2 30 amp sockets on shore power pedestal to see if they're 2 different phases. Both hot wires would equal 240v in this case. Make an adapter to connect the 2 30 amp plugs and connect a 50amp cable to the boat. 60 amps available per line if using 2 isolation transformers, so I would limit the inverter charger to 50amps to protect the cable.

Tertiary plan if 240v isn't possible is to connect to a 50amp 120v shore power inlet.

Last effort is to connect the 30amp 120 cable. Again I don't really care about amperage. I generally just need a 30amp connection the majority of the time. The preferance for 50 amps is for the scuba compressor and A/C. The running current is usually low but the startup current on these can spike quite a lot, over what a 30 amp breaker can handle. I also don't like running a cable close to it's max, as that situation with the resistance of mildly corroded sockets and cable ends is the path to most of the shore power cable fires.

Only need L1, and L2. N is helpful because I am using 2 isolation transformers and want to size things for max power. Don't need G to the boat because if the isolation transformer, however if I do I don't go further than the inlet to protect the inlet from any craziness. You could use a 50amp 3 wire inlet to reduce complexity and adapters however it would be to easy to miss connect stuff for anyone that doesn't know your system.

There is another advantage for 240v. Make an adapter on the shore power end feeding L1, L2 and N into a 3 wire cable (same size wires as 4 wire 240v 50amp). Need another adapter on the boat to adapt the 50amp 3 wire cable to the correct terminals on the 240v 4 wire inlet. This lets you use the smaller, lighter, and easier to handle cable. In euro voltage areas you can do the same with a 30amp cable as they typically have 16 or 32 amp service.
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Old 12-01-2021, 22:33   #14
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

Bridgeport magnetics. the multi tap transformer for different voltages has to be ordered as Model MP6, 120-208-240V 50/60Hz. This is a toroidal transformer so it's smaller and lighter

There are other brands charles had a larger capacity isolation transformer. So did Master Volt. If I remember correctly the charles was a very large and heavy beast, the master volt were expensive and maybe too low amperage and didn't connect well wiring wise. The victron does have a bigger unit but you can't switch the wiring input with a switch without some custom work.

I talked to the bridgeport magnetics and the part# I listed is what we worked out. Aperently it's easy to wire torrodal transformers, and add more windings for different voltages. 120v, 208v and 240v is what you will find anywhere in the us. More importantly this lets you connect to a switch so you can switch voltages from a panel
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Old 12-01-2021, 22:38   #15
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Re: Split-phase 2xVictro Quattro System

https://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/...-transformers/

They make isolation transformers fr medical equipment. Not well known for boating. Seem to be high quality
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