The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Again, I am not disagreeing with you and that is what I always believed (and still do). But that is not what the research on LFP says. Runaway is being described a rise in temperature with a feedback loop as you describe where the heat from the reaction feeds back into it, but that reaction does not have to end in fire. There is a maximum temperature that is reached, after which it begins to cool.

Here is one such study, just one I found quickly, not as thorough as others I have read. It shows the temperature rising quickly (in this case to a temperature high enough to start a wood fire-which is new to me) and after reaching that temperature, quickly cooling back down. But the cells themselves don't burn.



https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...1/1/012114/pdf

But there was no thermal runaway. The charging was not stopped untill the "Thermal runaway " had occurred.

I am also suspect over any study requiring additional government fees and safety procedures .( things the government makes money off) when it is paid vortex by thd agency that stands to profit.

This work was financially supported by Science and Technology Project of State Grid Corporation of China “Research on Simulation and Evaluation Technology of Thermal Runaway of Large Capacity Lithium Ion Battery Energy Storage System” Fundation.

[fxykty]

Regarding insurance and LFP batteries, I have two anecdotes.

The first is from a marine electrician in Brisbane, QLD Australia. He told me that he is no longer doing any LFP installs on boats as the Australian (Queensland?) installation requirements are too onerous to be met on the vast majority of boats. Specifically, he said the requirement for ventilation was generally not possible for batteries located in living spaces (as an example, our 700Ah 12V battery sitting under one of our salon seats would need a 150mm diameter forced air ventilation duct to outside air). He would also not do any work on an existing LFP installation as he could not legally sign off on work that doesn’t meet the current regulations.

The second is regarding insurance coverage of boats with LFP installations. As with many things, it depends on the insurance company. Our UK-based insurer has the following clause in our policy: “8.3 Lithium Batteries It is a condition of this insurance that the use and maintenance of lithium batteries is carried out in strict accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and full records are to be kept”. They don’t care who installed them, or even the chemistry.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Regarding insurance and LFP batteries, I have two anecdotes.

The first is from a marine electrician in Brisbane, QLD Australia. He told me that he is no longer doing any LFP installs on boats as the Australian (Queensland?) installation requirements are too onerous to be met on the vast majority of boats. Specifically, he said the requirement for ventilation was generally not possible for batteries located in living spaces (as an example, our 700Ah 12V battery sitting under one of our salon seats would need a 150mm diameter forced air ventilation duct to outside air). He would also not do any work on an existing LFP installation as he could not legally sign off on work that doesn’t meet the current regulations.

The second is regarding insurance coverage of boats with LFP installations. As with many things, it depends on the insurance company. Our UK-based insurer has the following clause in our policy: “8.3 Lithium Batteries It is a condition of this insurance that the use and maintenance of lithium batteries is carried out in strict accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and full records are to be kept”. They don’t care who installed them, or even the chemistry.

Thanks for that. Please mention the insurer!

My best friend - who is a King's Council (a fancy lawyer) - said I should just use an internet insurer - he mentioned their name - which is what he did with his newly purchased but 6 year old motor fishing boat, a practical but not cheap one. He said since mine is insured, it would be easy to switch over to another company that had less onerous conditions. As an insurance example, most insurers require new mast rigging at 10 years in Australia, while I have been told, in Europe rigging doesn't have to be replaced until many years later.

Of course, if one does things oneself, that there is also a way out for insurance companies! I imagine for boat usage, a letter of approval from the distributor or retailer of the battery might be useful, and a log book kept of how one met their instructions, which would have to include marine usage.

I rang up a popular off road supplier of equipment, who sell their own AGM and LFP (Lith Phos Iron) batteries, and queried their use on my sail boat. They said NO! They were terrified of me using any of their products in the marine environment!

When I read all the conditions for lead acid batteries, there are also lots of escape clauses available for those ... the charging requirements are somewhat onerous to fully comply. As an example, most AGM batteries say charge at 20C. Which for a large bank would be a huge amount of ampage. And most say don't supply less than 10 C. I mean by that, for 100 AH, supply 20 amps for 20C, and 10 amps for 10C. For boats who have 600 AH of batteries, that would require between 60 and 120 amps. A 100 AH charger is heavy, expensive and likely not water tolerant.

As far as the electrical installers, they also have insurance, and they have to inspect regularly their work. That costs them a fortune, and such small businesses are always very busy. Getting access to every boat they have worked on to do an inspection, is impossible. They also know that people muck around - the buy things, they add things. At the end of the day in Melbourne, no marine electrical business would be involved in putting Lithium into my sailboat.

One big advantage of lithium phospate iron battery compared to lead acid is its weight - but a lithium capable fire extinguisher (there is only one brand available in Australia) weighs 25 kg. More than most lithium batteries!

The next type of lithium batteries will be solid state which promise greater safety. The facts are that solid state has less to go wrong.

As far as thermal runaway goes in Lithium phosphate iron - yes its unlikely. But its quite wrong to say it cannot happen. The way to avoid it, is by having a robust BMS, that will prevent over charging. That BMS has to work for years, in the tough conditions that boats at sea produce.

One review over charged the batteries to 35 volts, and then the batteries progressed to thermal runaway. They tested 25 AH, 60 AH and 200 AH Lith Phosp Iron batteries: Quote:

The second stage is the thermal runaway stage. All battery temperatures are rising rapidly. The
starting temperatures of thermal runaway are 120 °C (25 Ah), 131 °C (60 Ah) and 116 °C (200 Ah). The
highest temperatures reached by thermal runaway are 263 °C (25Ah), 514 °C (60Ah) and 313 °C (200Ah), respectively. It can be seen that the highest temperature of battery thermal runaway has nothing to do with battery capacity.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...%20%C2%B0C%2Fs.

There's lots of work been done on this issue. Of course, manufacturers will get studies done, that suit their needs. That's the modern world.

I wanted Lithium for my boat. But its not been possible for me. If I'm still sailing, maybe a solid state will be available, or a salt battery will be too. But I'm now living with an extra 50 kg in my boat, but such is life. I do admit though, the batteries installed are more fault tolerant than the other choices I looked at.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

A 100 AH charger is heavy, expensive and likely not water tolerant.

Check out the Victron Quattro 12/5000 Inverter Charger. About $3,600 usd. Expensive? Well, yes, but not really for what it does. Recommended for marine use, has a 220a max charge rate, (well above the 100a you mentioned) and weighs 35kg. As for being "water tolerant", I could find no reference to water tolerant in ABYC specifications . . . If you're saying that you cannot submerge this or any other electrical component in salt water and expect it to function properly . . . . well, I guess it isn't water tolerant. Mine is mounted such that I would have to have 5' of water in my engine room to get up to the Victron Quattro . . . .and by that time, I think I'll be having things on my mind other than whether or not my Inverter Charger can be utilized while underwater . . ., like launching my life raft!

One big advantage of lithium phospate iron battery

MP, You keep going on about lithium phospate iron batteries. Do you mean Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4, or LFP)?]Edit: Not sure why Cruisersforum keeps turning words in my post into links. It's irritating, and NOT helpful!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

MP, You keep going on about lithium phospate iron batteries. Do you mean Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4, or LFP)?
Edit: Not sure why Cruisersforum keeps turning words in my post into links. It's irritating, and NOT helpful!

Lifepo4 and LFP are the same thing and yes he is but remember this is an international forum and many posters English is not the primary language . Sometimes you just automaticly interpret the minor syntaxe issues no big deal .

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

...

When I read all the conditions for lead acid batteries, there are also lots of escape clauses available for those ... the charging requirements are somewhat onerous to fully comply. As an example, most AGM batteries say charge at 20C. Which for a large bank would be a huge amount of ampage. And most say don't supply less than 10 C. I mean by that, for 100 AH, supply 20 amps for 20C, and 10 amps for 10C. For boats who have 600 AH of batteries, that would require between 60 and 120 amps. A 100 AH charger is heavy, expensive and likely not water tolerant.

....

1C for a 100Ahr battery is 100Amps. 0.2C minimum (20A for 100Ahr battery) is what a lot of AGM manufacturers in the US specify.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

.....

Another example - a large seller of solar gear (who installed solar panels on my house) sells lots of batteries. Its acts as advertising for his solar panel installation business (where he uses outside electrical contractors while he makes money from his hardware margin). He showed me the internals of a lithium he sells. The BMS was tiny, not much bigger than a credit card, and very thin too, the BMS had no heat sink, it was floating around on top of the cells, the wiring connections were tiny, the whole internals were appalling. Now I could have put those batteries in my boat, and thought everything is fine.

....

Were all the wires tiny?
Normally the balancing wires are all pretty small, they carry small currents at small voltages to balance all the cells.
The positive and negative wires running to the external connectors should be pretty large.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The second is regarding insurance coverage of boats with LFP installations. As with many things, it depends on the insurance company. Our UK-based insurer has the following clause in our policy: “8.3 Lithium Batteries It is a condition of this insurance that the use and maintenance of lithium batteries is carried out in strict accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and full records are to be kept”. They don’t care who installed them, or even the chemistry.

I bet they would take the same position on anything installed on the boat.

There is nothing in the manual from my LFP manufacturer about installation

[LAGERTHA]

Bravo Colin I got the same tone. Sweet Jesus guys.

[s/v Jedi]

This is ridiculous.

Yes, under the tests performed you are allowed to say that there was a thermal runaway.

They tested single prismatic cells that were first held at their max. charged voltage (let’s say 3.65V) for 12 hours (!) and next overcharged at a whopping 35V. Imagine your 12V housebank being charged at 140V or your 24V house bank being charged at 280V!

Even with that, the reaction quickly stops with rapid cooldown before auto ignition.

It is technically impossible to create such conditions on a boat, to make the comparison is ridiculous.

On insurance it seems we should investigate if we can get a liability+ policy where the + is for a total loss due to submerged containers, whale attack etc.

[AKA-None]

Just imagine if we were talking about the danger of a flooded lead acid battery

[Melbourne Park]

Sorry about the wrong order for naming LFP batteries. It's easier to just type those three letters.

Now the danger that probably insurance companies perceive, may well be linked to the many very flavoured LFP batteries out there. Plus the possibilities of downside electrical issues when changing to LFP and also drawing more power from a house battery bank.

I reckon there needs to be a standard for LFP for marine usage. The problem with doing so would be that as soon as it happened, the makers achieving that standard, would put their prices up. Incidentally, the price for me of putting in Lifeline AGMs, was much the same as putting in Lifeline LFPs, for the same useable capacity.

There are enormous differences in the quality of LFP batteries, which are much more than just their cells. There is a difference between something assembled in the USA for instance, out of all USA or Euro components except for the LFP cells, and a Chinese put together LFP battery. The same too goes for AGM batteries, etc.

But another issue with LFP, is that if one adds it to a boat, a lot of things need to be upgraded if one increases the power draw of components. IMO if I had a larger sail boat and I switched to LFP, a 24 volt system would be better, because the wiring could stay the same even if I drew double the wattage. Or maybe a 48 volt system would be the best of all. And then in the galley for instance, reduce the power to 12V.

There are many issues with converting to LFP, and they are so varied, that it is no wonder that insurance companies are cautious.

And IMO, people who say that LFP is perfectly safe, are missing the point. No battery system in a boat is perfectly safe, and when one changes things, a great deal of caution and checking with experienced electrical contractors should be used. For example, a childhood friend of mine has short handed two Fastnet races, the Melbourne to Osaka short handed race, a cross Atlantic race (he did that single handed), and despite being Dux of his famous school and being an electronic engineer (plus other post graduate stuff), he had his electricals for his 37 foot boat done by experienced installers. In all things there is a learning curve.

I was very confident I could do it all myself. But at the end of the day, why would I put any doubt in my mind about the electrics?

Sadly though, even with a brand new 55 foot 2 million dollar yacht, some insurance companies will only cover 50%, and as far as marine electrical contractors go in my city in Australia, they will not get involved in LFP installations. They'd like to though ... but doing so is too onerous for their businesses. They say wait for salt or solid state, and upgrade then!

The penalty for AGM compared to LFP for me, has been 50kg.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

For example, a childhood friend of mine has short handed two Fastnet races, the Melbourne to Osaka short handed race, a cross Atlantic race (he did that single handed), and despite being Dux of his famous school and being an electronic engineer (plus other post graduate stuff), he had his electricals for his 37 foot boat done by experienced installers. In all things there is a learning curve.

I was very confident I could do it all myself. But at the end of the day, why would I put any doubt in my mind about the electrics?

You can have all your electrics done by experienced installers. However when your system goes dead in the Solomon Islands or halfway across the Indian Ocean, you will damn well wish you had done it yourself.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

. There is a difference between something assembled in the USA for instance, out of all USA or Euro components except for the LFP cells, and a Chinese put together LFP battery. The same too goes for AGM batteries

I don’t know. Have you been keeping up with the times lately?

The Chinese are approaching the quality of the Japanese. Very quickly. They are pretty much already there.

A few years ago I might have a greed with you. But times have definitely changed.

all of the stuff I get from China now has been absolutely perfect.

so I don’t think you can really paint with that wide of a brush anymore to say that just because something was manufactured in China it’s not high-quality.

in fact, given how lazy and uneducated the American workforce is becoming, I wouldn’t buy anything made here. Sad to say but it’s true. I don’t think the European workforce is incredibly better either. There are lots of problems with quality from European products.

I can’t help but to think about motorcycles for a moment. Maybe not everyone here knows much about them. Those European bikes are constantly broken. Too complicated. Always something going wrong with them. American bikes? They might fare just a little better. Japanese bikes? Never break down. Chinese bikes? Pretty much the same as Japanese. Similar situation when it comes to cars. And spacecraft.

And I’m talking about right now. I’m not talking about three years ago. I’m not even talking about two years ago. I’m talking about now.

[neilpride]

Famed Italian motorcycle manufacturer Ducati ended 2022 with record operating profit and more than €1 billion in revenue.

They dominate right now, complicated? Desmo needs more attention than a Japanese 4-in-line.

That the Chinese are on par in quality with the Japanese is not true, 99% of the chinese motorcycle manufactures are copies of the Japanese and don't even come close to the quality of a Japanese.

Honda has been making motorcycles since the invention of the wheel, the knowledge they have of metallurgy, metalworking, and long term reliability cannot be surpassed by a Chinese brand at the moment.

Speaking of metals, a $4 Chinese shackle cannot compare to a $28 Wichard shackle. The Chinese don't even want to label SWL.