The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Famed Italian motorcycle manufacturer Ducati ended 2022 with record operating profit and more than €1 billion in revenue.

They dominate right now, complicated? Desmo needs more attention than a Japanese 4-in-line.

That the Chinese are on par in quality with the Japanese is not true, 99% of the chinese motorcycle manufactures are copies of the Japanese and don't even come close to the quality of a Japanese.

Honda has been making motorcycles since the invention of the wheel, the knowledge they have of metallurgy, metalworking, and long term reliability cannot be surpassed by a Chinese brand at the moment.

Speaking of metals, a $4 Chinese shackle cannot compare to a $28 Wichard shackle. The Chinese don't even want to label SWL.

I don’t want to get too far off topic here, but the Chinese yes, they do not have R&D. They don’t make new bikes and new technology.

however, the bikes they do make don’t break anymore. That’s old news.

News just about as old as the designs they use. Ha ha.

But actually, they have almost caught up with design to modern times. There are only a few years behind now.

I didn’t say anywhere that Chinese motorcycles were better than Japanese. That’s definitely not the case. Their metallurgy is still like you said, a little bit behind. But the bikes run. They don’t break down. Not anymore.

KTMs, BMWs, Husqvarnas? Lolol. Worse Track record than Chinese bikes in the last couple years when it comes to walking home from a ride. You only mention Ducati

there is always a sensor going wrong, some electronics going wrong, some overly engineered piece breaking. They are very unreliable bikes. And guess what? Do you want to fix that broken bike? No. You have to bring it in for $120 an hour. You couldn’t give me one of those bikes for free.

I probably won’t respond to any more motorcycle talk. It’s just way too far off of the thread topic. I don’t want to derail things too much.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

Sorry about the wrong order for naming LFP batteries. It's easier to just type those three letters.

Now the danger that probably insurance companies perceive, may well be linked to the many very flavoured LFP batteries out there. Plus the possibilities of downside electrical issues when changing to LFP and also drawing more power from a house battery bank.

I reckon there needs to be a standard for LFP for marine usage. The problem with doing so would be that as soon as it happened, the makers achieving that standard, would put their prices up. Incidentally, the price for me of putting in Lifeline AGMs, was much the same as putting in Lifeline LFPs, for the same useable capacity.

There are enormous differences in the quality of LFP batteries, which are much more than just their cells. There is a difference between something assembled in the USA for instance, out of all USA or Euro components except for the LFP cells, and a Chinese put together LFP battery. The same too goes for AGM batteries, etc.

But another issue with LFP, is that if one adds it to a boat, a lot of things need to be upgraded if one increases the power draw of components. IMO if I had a larger sail boat and I switched to LFP, a 24 volt system would be better, because the wiring could stay the same even if I drew double the wattage. Or maybe a 48 volt system would be the best of all. And then in the galley for instance, reduce the power to 12V.

There are many issues with converting to LFP, and they are so varied, that it is no wonder that insurance companies are cautious.

And IMO, people who say that LFP is perfectly safe, are missing the point. No battery system in a boat is perfectly safe, and when one changes things, a great deal of caution and checking with experienced electrical contractors should be used. For example, a childhood friend of mine has short handed two Fastnet races, the Melbourne to Osaka short handed race, a cross Atlantic race (he did that single handed), and despite being Dux of his famous school and being an electronic engineer (plus other post graduate stuff), he had his electricals for his 37 foot boat done by experienced installers. In all things there is a learning curve.

I was very confident I could do it all myself. But at the end of the day, why would I put any doubt in my mind about the electrics?

Sadly though, even with a brand new 55 foot 2 million dollar yacht, some insurance companies will only cover 50%, and as far as marine electrical contractors go in my city in Australia, they will not get involved in LFP installations. They'd like to though ... but doing so is too onerous for their businesses. They say wait for salt or solid state, and upgrade then!

The penalty for AGM compared to LFP for me, has been 50kg.

Actually they have and here is where we discussed it last fall/ early winter ( northern hemisphere)

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...269664-14.html

https://panbo.com/abyc-ratifies-e-13...tery-standard/

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I don’t know. Have you been keeping up with the times lately?

The Chinese are approaching the quality of the Japanese. Very quickly. They are pretty much already there.

A few years ago I might have a greed with you. But times have definitely changed.

all of the stuff I get from China now has been absolutely perfect.

so I don’t think you can really paint with that wide of a brush anymore to say that just because something was manufactured in China it’s not high-quality.

in fact, given how lazy and uneducated the American workforce is becoming, I wouldn’t buy anything made here. Sad to say but it’s true. I don’t think the European workforce is incredibly better either. There are lots of problems with quality from European products.
...

One of the issues is the quality of the metal. Another is the quality control systems. Another is the automation.

Disinterested US workers can sure happen. That is what QC is about, and having a company that is well run.

Certainly China can make good things, but their QC and metallurgy I view as suspect. Which is why "brands" are so important these days.

Australia uses more and more of Chinese building materials, such as windows, and the quality varies hugely. My son was an administrator for a school build, and they put in Chinese windows. It was a debacle due to those. The building opened three years ago, and took one year to build. The Chinese QC was terrible, and even the windows came in a a large number of containers, were randomly loaded and took a huge time just to organise at the building site.

Chinese manufacturing also outsource a huge amount. Which is one reason why their quality can vary a lot. I've been involved with Chinese, Japanese and Taiwanese manufacturers for a long time. There have been vast improvements, but there are endemic issues IMO.

The vast majority of Lithium cells come from China. So what Lifeline, Battleborn, etc. use, are Chinese. But also, there are vast differences in the quality of LFP cells available from China.

There is also the legal issue. If a USA company stuffs up, it'll pay for it. But with China, the onus goes onto the importer. I can sell my own brand of battery, with my own labels, and all I have to do, is order 100 of them, from a large number of Chinese makers who would OEM them for me, with whatever label I choose. And if my limited company stuffs up, it'll close down and I guess, I will head for the ocean!

There has been attempts to get quality standards in line, for some time actually. And as said, Chinese factories can have high QC standards. But it does depend. And with AGM batteries, the lead in China isn't as pure as what the USA supplies. I'll pick a Suisse pocket knife before a Chinese one. And a Japanese one before a Chinese one. And a made in USA in preference too. With LFP cells, I presume the US companies that import the cells from China, have close relationships and know that the quality they buy is both reliable and conforms to what quality level they have expected. As far as the brands we have in Australia, most don't tell which cells they use. Our prices here vary a huge amount too. For Australian LFP brands, the costlier ones are Redarc and Enerdrive. Their prices vary depending on their capacity, their BMS capabilities, I presume their cell capabilities, and whether they can be paralleled or put in series or both, and to what extent. Then there lots of smaller companies. Such as Baintech, which try to be high quality. There are several like that, and many are basically garage assembly manufactures. Then there are the large makers of cheap LFP, who buy it all in and assemble, and claim they are locally made. Some just put a label on. Then there are the international brand quality LFP companies, such as Lifeline (a marine specialist) and Victron. I could mention many brands. But finding out what is underneath, and what shock ability they have, it's actually difficult. In a lot of cases, we just hope the brand's quality is as good as their marketing claims.

[s/v Jedi]

Have you seen the Chinese space station? Ours look like the ghetto compared to it! And they have their own one. Looks like their metallurgy works fine there…

These arguments go nowhere. You have windows made in your country that are so-so and now you buy Chinese windows, not in the same price class but ten times cheaper and then complain about quality control?

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Regarding insurance and LFP batteries, I have two anecdotes.

The first is from a marine electrician in Brisbane, QLD Australia. He told me that he is no longer doing any LFP installs on boats as the Australian (Queensland?) installation requirements are too onerous to be met on the vast majority of boats. Specifically, he said the requirement for ventilation was generally not possible for batteries located in living spaces (as an example, our 700Ah 12V battery sitting under one of our salon seats would need a 150mm diameter forced air ventilation duct to outside air). He would also not do any work on an existing LFP installation as he could not legally sign off on work that doesn’t meet the current regulations.

The second is regarding insurance coverage of boats with LFP installations. As with many things, it depends on the insurance company. Our UK-based insurer has the following clause in our policy: “8.3 Lithium Batteries It is a condition of this insurance that the use and maintenance of lithium batteries is carried out in strict accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and full records are to be kept”. They don’t care who installed them, or even the chemistry.

I’d love to know what spec the techs in australia are required to follow. Anyone have any references?

[Adelie]

We can continue a discussion about how bad Lithium batteries are ad nauseum
OR
The political discussion about the Chinese can continue and the thread will be closed.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

We can continue a discussion about how bad Lithium batteries ad nauseum
OR
The political discussion about the Chinese can continue and the thread will be closed.

I vote for lifepo4 batteries

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I vote for lifepo4 batteries

Bravo, I too vote to continue the lithium discussion, denigrating a country is counterproductive, we all have examples of shonky practices from our own and other countries, some to the highest levels.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

Thanks for that. Please mention the insurer!

...

Our broker is Velos Insurance Service Ltd http://www.velosinsurance.co.uk/. The insurance is Global Yacht Cover, which has an interesting corporate chain: Global Yacht Cover is a trading name of Alwen Hough Johnson Limited Authorised and regulated in the UK by the FCA – register number 308774 Product: Global Yacht Cover as sub cover holder of Munich Re Risk Solutions Ireland underwriting on behalf of Great Lakes Insurance SE.

We’ve had the same cover since buying the boat 6 years ago and our two claims plus one third party were all handled very well, though having the broker fight on our behalf (previously Baileys Insurance https://baileysinsurance.co.nz/) was helpful.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Our broker is Velos Insurance Service Ltd http://www.velosinsurance.co.uk/. The insurance is Global Yacht Cover, which has an interesting corporate chain: Global Yacht Cover is a trading name of Alwen Hough Johnson Limited Authorised and regulated in the UK by the FCA – register number 308774 Product: Global Yacht Cover as sub cover holder of Munich Re Risk Solutions Ireland underwriting on behalf of Great Lakes Insurance SE.

We’ve had the same cover since buying the boat 6 years ago and our two claims plus one third party were all handled very well, though having the broker fight on our behalf (previously Baileys Insurance https://baileysinsurance.co.nz/) was helpful.

Thanks.

[Painless]

Some new technology is too much for some people to adapt….there are 20 homes burned down every day in the U. S. from fires started by candles.

[Melbourne Park]

It's pretty pointless criticising China business practices in this thread, because China is almost totally the only source of LFP battery manufacture. By that, I mean the making of the cells. And only in China are further LFP plants planned - according the 3rd party summaries of IDTechEx's report on LFP (and other Lithium) battery manufacturing. I'd have liked to have read their whole article, but it would have cost me $US6,200 to access a copy, although one does get 5 licenses!

I think it is paranoid to call manufacturing differences a "racial" issue. The facts are that China has 1.4 billion people, who speak several main languages ( I read 6 when I studied China at Uni) and back then we counted 232 dialects. A sole Cantonese speaker cannot understand a Mandarin speaker. And China is a big country too.

So let's leave alone the "racist" slur when talking about the possibility that one manufacturer in China may have better quality than a different manufacturer. As we know from VRLA AGM batteries, the Chinese can make some decent ones, and they can make some bad ones. To say that variance in performance concerning Chinese made AGM batteries is actually a racist statement, is a slur that is misplaced.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

It's pretty pointless criticising China business practices in this thread, because China is almost totally the only source of LFP battery manufacture. By that, I mean the making of the cells. And only in China are further LFP plants planned - according the 3rd party summaries of IDTechEx's report on LFP (and other Lithium) battery manufacturing. I'd have liked to have read their whole article, but it would have cost me $US6,200 to access a copy, although one does get 5 licenses!

I think it is paranoid to call manufacturing differences a "racial" issue. The facts are that China has 1.4 billion people, who speak several main languages ( I read 6 when I studied China at Uni) and back then we counted 232 dialects. A sole Cantonese speaker cannot understand a Mandarin speaker. And China is a big country too.

So let's leave alone the "racist" slur when talking about the possibility that one manufacturer in China may have better quality than a different manufacturer. As we know from VRLA AGM batteries, the Chinese can make some decent ones, and they can make some bad ones. To say that variance in performance concerning Chinese made AGM batteries is actually a racist statement, is a slur that is misplaced.

You obviously didn’t read post #141

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by smj

You obviously didn’t read post #141

hat

There's been no discussion about China's politics here. The thread is about Lithium batteries, or should I say LFP batteries - being dangerous for single usage in boats. I don't think their recycling issues, or country strategic issues, etc, are an issue for this thread, although saying their recycling is problematic shouldn't really have a place here, IMO.

We have established IMO that LFP is much safer than other common forms of Lithium batteries.

Some here don't accept that LFP does have a fire risk or that a LFP battery can have a thermal runaway.

It seems clear that LFP battery fires are highly unusual and hence unlikely.

Concerning the possibility of fire, it seems the following is the case:

In order for the battery to catch fire, a cell would have to reach 124 to 128 degrees Celsius. One of many references: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...50423016304715

The main reason such a high temperature could happen seems to be overcharging.

It seems also that a LFP's standard BMS would prevent that possibility.

There are other reasons that could allow a cell to get to such high temperatures, but for boats, IMO they all seem academic. It really comes down for a boat, to having a decent quality product. And having a decent electrical setup in the boat, which accords with the different resistance and capacity outcomes of each particular boat's LFP setup.

About insurance companies:
- There are reasons why an insurance company would be cautious about a switch from lead acid to LFP. For instance, many LFP retailers advertise "drop in LFP" batteries. But doing so might easily burn out a boat's alternator. Which might cost the insurance company time and money.

- As to why some insurance companies are reticent to insure lithium installations in boats, it seems overall, many do not understand the difference between a LFP battery, and other types of Lithium batteries.

This seems to be related to the many discussions of batteries including research and statistics, having LFP referred to as a subset of Lithium type batteries. So LFP typically is referred to as being just one form of many in the available lithium battery range. In actuality that is unfortunate, as the LFP variety is much safer, and it deserves to be talked about as being separate from other currently available lithium batteries.

IMO the whole branding of LFP has been a major mistake. It's a shame they did not just call them "iron phosphate" or maybe "Safe Lithium" batteries.

If so, I'd now have lithium in my insured boat.

[newhaul]

Lifepo4 will not have a thermal runaway by tag standard definition . ie it will heat up to the point that the thermal reaction becomes self sustaining resulting in the internal components of the cell catching fire.
One Chinese government sponsored study not withstanding . there are many videos on youtube of official agencies testing with no fire from the cell