Ideal Generator?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It would be really cool to be able to get both propulsion and generating out of the aux engine.

Does anyone know a system which will do what Happy describes here?

If the aux has a large generator why bother with Hydraulics, just use an electric motor with a clutch. A variable pitch prop could adjust to match the power available from a smaller motor.

[Bcook01]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Wouldn't it be kinda cool to have a hydraulic pump/motor fitted on an aux engine and drive a generator head located elsewhere... AND... have a pump/motor fitted to the main shaft???

You could drive the genset with the aux or the main, and emergency drive the propshaft with the aux???

http://power.cummins.com/sites/defau...SB-6063-EN.pdf

Onan made one in the 80's. At the time we had a Volvo hydraulic sail drive on a 38' C&C. Biggest problem was frequency regulation. Otherwise, saildrive was very reliable, and never experienced any leaks. Today there is better inverter technology. At the time it replaced a genset and took up very little room. You could locate engine and generator where best suited.

Bob

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pete7

If the aux has a large generator why bother with Hydraulics, just use an electric motor with a clutch. A variable pitch prop could adjust to match the power available from a smaller motor.

Several reasons, first no moving parts, except valves. No electricity required, wiring and salt water may not play so well together.
You rather have a large hydraulically driven crash pump or electric if your taking on water?
Best way to be redundant is to have truly duplicate assemblies, two identical engines, not two different ones. Rather than trying to figure out how your generator can move the boat at slow speed, have two identical engines, either can drive everything.

The more complex, the more hydraulic drive makes sense, but with crash pumps, generators, furling gear, bow thruster, windlass
I think your there.

Course this is probably all just good fun, Dock has said no science experiments, and what that means is sourcing only tried and true systems, and that I believe knocks out hybrid anything. That sort of takes you to a twin engine, twin screw with twin generators boat. But I think to meet his goals, it will have to be a BIG boat, at least by my standards anyway.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Bcook01

http://power.cummins.com/sites/defau...SB-6063-EN.pdf

Onan made one in the 80's. At the time we had a Volvo hydraulic sail drive on a 38' C&C. Biggest problem was frequency regulation. Otherwise, saildrive was very reliable, and never experienced any leaks. Today there is better inverter technology. At the time it replaced a genset and took up very little room. You could locate engine and generator where best suited.

Bob

WELCOME to CF Bob !

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Pete7

If the aux has a large generator why bother with Hydraulics, just use an electric motor with a clutch. A variable pitch prop could adjust to match the power available from a smaller motor.

It would be so easy with hydraulics... And efficiency losses are super low... PLUS... you're talking low dollar pumps/motors that could be repaired/rebuilt/replaced by local native utilizing nothing but a sea sponge and a conch shell...

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Several reasons, first no moving parts, except valves. No electricity required, wiring and salt water may not play so well together.
You rather have a large hydraulically driven crash pump or electric if your taking on water?
Best way to be redundant is to have truly duplicate assemblies, two identical engines, not two different ones. Rather than trying to figure out how your generator can move the boat at slow speed, have two identical engines, either can drive everything.

The more complex, the more hydraulic drive makes sense, but with crash pumps, generators, furling gear, bow thruster, windlass
I think your there.

Course this is probably all just good fun, Dock has said no science experiments, and what that means is sourcing only tried and true systems, and that I believe knocks out hybrid anything. That sort of takes you to a twin engine, twin screw with twin generators boat. But I think to meet his goals, it will have to be a BIG boat, at least by my standards anyway.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Fine... I'm sourcing a new partner then...

[Bcook01]

Here is an interesting concept. Just need to throw some money at the problem ;-)

Electric propulsion on hybrid technology for sailboats and catamarans

It could make sense on a new build in the 50' class.

Bob

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

The green Beta was nice, toothed belt drive. You'll get Dock' to buy the Beta....he's a sucker for huge alternators/generators

That's true , they ask redicolous price for just a bigger alternator...

Brianlara, get it maybe, like give pearl to pork? Waste something good by giving it to who can't understand or estimate it?

[stefano_ita]

I also thought about

a hpevc ac motor with curtis controller, with 10-12 x reduction to the prop shaft, big battery bank like 48 or 96 v , all lifepoy4, solar and wind charged, and the same engine coupled to a orginary marine engine to works as generator...(they also work as regen , as to be used in regenerative braking in car)

Also hydraulic drive make get me interested but the leaks that for sure will happens made me change idea (or max for catamaran with only one engine and 2 x hydraulic motor...a 60 kw heavy duty continius hydraulic motor cost 300 euro, almost 100 euro an hydraulic pump with flow rate/ pressure ok for 60 kw motor..and hydraulic winch, hydraulic windlass (with a tank riserve) very cheap and heavy duty system...but just one small stuff fail and all your great system is out of work...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

If the aux has a large generator why bother with Hydraulics, just use an electric motor with a clutch. A variable pitch prop could adjust to match the power available from a smaller motor.

I will definitely have a variable pitch prop -- Hundested CP. It was practically the first thing which got specified.


But one thing to keep in mind is that redundant propulsion achieved this way only backs up the main engine -- not the shaft, prop, etc. It might be simpler, easier, and cheaper just to put in a separate sail drive with folding prop, on the generator engine.

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It would be really cool to be able to get both propulsion and generating out of the aux engine.

Does anyone know a system which will do what Happy describes here?

No but the idea of

hydraulic motor coupled to the shaft propeller,

main engine with main hydraulic pump

small engine as generator (whatever 110 230 or 24 v dc) with a small hydraulic pump,

parallel system, in case main engine/pump fail, you can use your genset to move the boat.

(and even keep another engine as spare parts on board, impossible due the price and weight for whatever other applications like electrics or diesel)

I asked for a hundested propeller, 32 inch diameter, time ago to be coupled with a gardner 6lxb (127 hp at 1500 rpm), they answered me that is too small for their production...and i don't think it would be cheap ( a bruntons autoprop would have been 12k + vat, max prop 10 k plus vat..)

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Gas is thread drift, but it's relevant to long-distance cruising.

You can't use your own bottles, because in most places it is exchange only, so you have to have standard bottles. It's a big PITA to keep different standard bottles on board, but I do it, of necessity, since UK bottles are available nowhere on the Continent, and every country seems to have its own standard. I keep UK and Finnish/Estonian standard bottles; can usually get between those zones without running out.

On my next boat, however, NO GAS. For reasons of simplicity, safety, and difficulty or impossibility of sourcing gas in remote places.

My galley will be ALL ELECTRIC. Another reason to have robust battery/generator capacity, so getting back to the original topic.

You get my idea...induction coocking-resistence coocking (also safer, as no gas on board, even lighter than air like methane)



LOL dockhead we are talking about the same things, like engine reversible motor/pump for hydraulic starting

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bcook01

Here is an interesting concept. Just need to throw some money at the problem ;-)

Electric propulsion on hybrid technology for sailboats and catamarans

It could make sense on a new build in the 50' class.

Bob

That's a series hybrid -- so electric motor and no mechanical drive option, unlike the parallel hybrid system shown by Pete7. It's basically diesel-electric but with batteries.

The maximum size of this particular system is 50kW, so too small for a 60' -- 65' boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by stefano_ita

You get my idea...induction coocking-resistence coocking (also safer, as no gas on board, even lighter than air like methane). .

Yes, electric cooking allows you to delete an entire system on board. It's not as good for the chef, but better in every other respect, particularly safety, but not only. Induction cooking, convection ovens, electric cooking has come a long ways in the last decade or two.

[stefano_ita]

Jusy a remind

i read around here (propulsion forum) that hydraulic power has 30% of losses of efficiency so only 70% of efficience...or 30% effiecience and 70% loosese? i don't remember...

3 phase ac permanent magnet motor-generator with curtis controller has an efficiency of about 95-96 %

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by stefano_ita

Jusy a remind

i read around here (propulsion forum) that hydraulic power has 30% of losses of efficiency so only 70% of efficience...or 30% effiecience and 70% loosese? i don't remember...

3 phase ac permanent magnet motor-generator with curtis controller has an efficiency of about 95-96 %

Depends.. also in hydraulics. Open circuit hydraulics 70% effiency is the best you can expect. With closed circuits if everything is well balanced it' s up to 90%.

BR Teddy