External alternator regulator for Lithium banks ?

[Jd1]

I am gradually inching my way up there. The alternator puts out 100A at idle (200A alternator) and cruising RPM it can charge up to about 170A now with the ground wire going to the lithium bank. Alas, the last tiny bit of current eludes me since I can't connect the positive sense directly to the lithium bank (as things go nuts when the bank is disconnected). Nevertheless, I think that the alternator is unlikely to supply more than 160A once it has reached operating temperature so I think this will be just fine.
Oh, I should also mention that the lithium bank was at 85% SOC so at a lower SOC, when I actually need to charge the bank, things should be even better.
I am a happy camper / sailor

[opfrei]

Hi all,

I just paired an older Balmar ARS-III regulator with a 120A alternator to charge a 910Ah LifePO4 battery bank.

I adjusted the regulator settings to 13.2 float / 13.9 bulk / 30min and re-routed the regulator’s voltage sense wires directly to the battery terminals as recommended.

Nevertheless, I cannot get more than 8A from the alternator at idle, and only 50A max when revving the engine.

Any suggestions on how to increase the alternator output at idle? Would a newer regulator (i.e. ARS-5) solve the problem?

Thanks for your help!

PS. Could somebody please explain why these regulators have a separate ground wire and where is the ideal place to connect it? As of now it is connected to the negative battery terminal, same as the negative voltage sense wire.

[witzgall]

Chris from Balmar here. If you want help with the ARS III I would suggest contacting our tech support at www.balmar.net, they know the product well.

We always suggest using the MC-614 for lithium installations. The wire on your regulator (and the ARS-5) that you are calling the voltage sense wire is also where the power for the reg is taken from. It is doing both duties - power and sense. On the MC-614, they are separate, so that the sense wire voltage cannot be down down due to current flow. The net result is the MC-614 can be more accurate in charging, a good thing with LFP.

You are correct in placing the ground cable on the battery terminal.

Make sure you have an alternator temp sense, and DO NOT use a battery temp sensor with LFP! You don't want temp compensated charging.

If you are running a 120a alternator off of a single belt, you are going to get a decent amount of belt dust when bulk charging such a large bank. This also creates more heat in the alternator.

Chris

Originally Posted by opfrei

Hi all,

I just paired an older Balmar ARS-III regulator with a 120A alternator to charge a 910Ah LifePO4 battery bank.

I adjusted the regulator settings to 13.2 float / 13.9 bulk / 30min and re-routed the regulator’s voltage sense wires directly to the battery terminals as recommended.

Nevertheless, I cannot get more than 8A from the alternator at idle, and only 50A max when revving the engine.

Any suggestions on how to increase the alternator output at idle? Would a newer regulator (i.e. ARS-5) solve the problem?

Thanks for your help!

PS. Could somebody please explain why these regulators have a separate ground wire and where is the ideal place to connect it? As of now it is connected to the negative battery terminal, same as the negative voltage sense wire.

[opfrei]

Thanks for your reply, Chris! Do you know if the older Balmar MC-612 would do the trick?

[witzgall]

Originally Posted by opfrei

Thanks for your reply, Chris! Do you know if the older Balmar MC-612 would do the trick?

Yes, it would work fine. We used one on our Wauquiez and a home brewed LiFePo4 bank while cruising.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by Jd1

This is exactly what I was thinking originally .... alas, this is not the behavior I am seeing. The regulator seems to have smarts in it that looks at set bulk voltage, currently sensed voltage and then adjusts current that is supplied - independent of capacity of the alternator.
I see sensed voltage at less than set voltage and current less than capacity even when the belt load manager is off (set to zero) and the alternator temperature is well below maximum. I do not have a battery temperature probe connected but don't believe that should be an issue.
If I artificially reduce sense voltage, with all other parameters unchanged, I can increase charge current up to the maximum the alternator can supply. This aspect of the regulator was unexpected and is the sole reason why I am monkeying around with things!

Turn on long display and you can see the output feild %. (Or messure the voltage of blue wire) If the feild is full. And the alt is not putting out full amps. Then the alt can not handle it. An alt will output less amps as it gets warm. Even if told to put full power out. Then you have an alt issue.

If the feild % is not full. Then the reg is pulling back. But if bv is under cv. It is Likly not.

[smac999]

Thanks for bringing back a 3 year thread about mc14’s, with a question about a totally different reg. Super usefull. Not.

[scfoster]

Contacted Balmar via web page to get an answer about using the DuoCharge with the MC-612 regulator, a FLA engine battery and LiFePO4 Lithium Battle Born house batteries (200Ah) and whether I need to upgrade the regulator. The alternator is a 100A Balmar (white) unit.

In the 2020 Balmar Catalog it states regarding the DuoCharge "4 Battery Programs Supported for the Start Battery: Standard Flooded, Deep Cycle
Flooded, AGM and Gel Cell".

The wiring diagram for the DuoCharge shows wiring the alternator + output directly to the house battery, then to the input side of the DuoCharge. The FLA house battery is connected to the output side of the DuoCharge.

Will the DuoCharge support a house Lithium battery and do I need to upgrade the voltage regulator to a MC-614?

[witzgall]

Funny, looking back in this thread, I responded first in 2016, before I worked for Balmar. Answers still the same. I ran this setup on our Wauquiez, but with a home brew LiFePo4 bank, and a sealed LA battery for start. It worked well, with a couple of notes.

1. Download the service bulletin from our website on programming a 614 to lithium. This was written for regs that were made before we added the LFP profile in software. The settings will work well for the 612 as well. Ensure that you have the voltage sense wire going directly to the battery post. It is a good idea to run the negative wire for the regulator to the neg battery post also: https://www.balmar.net/wp-content/up...nuary-2019.pdf

2. Wire up the Duo charge so it is turned on and off with your ignition.


Chris

Originally Posted by scfoster

Contacted Balmar via web page to get an answer about using the DuoCharge with the MC-612 regulator, a FLA engine battery and LiFePO4 Lithium Battle Born house batteries (200Ah) and whether I need to upgrade the regulator. The alternator is a 100A Balmar (white) unit.

In the 2020 Balmar Catalog it states regarding the DuoCharge "4 Battery Programs Supported for the Start Battery: Standard Flooded, Deep Cycle
Flooded, AGM and Gel Cell".

The wiring diagram for the DuoCharge shows wiring the alternator + output directly to the house battery, then to the input side of the DuoCharge. The FLA house battery is connected to the output side of the DuoCharge.

Will the DuoCharge support a house Lithium battery and do I need to upgrade the voltage regulator to a MC-614?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by scfoster

Contacted Balmar via web page to get an answer about using the DuoCharge with the MC-612 regulator, a FLA engine battery and LiFePO4 Lithium Battle Born house batteries (200Ah) and whether I need to upgrade the regulator. The alternator is a 100A Balmar (white) unit.

In the 2020 Balmar Catalog it states regarding the DuoCharge "4 Battery Programs Supported for the Start Battery: Standard Flooded, Deep Cycle
Flooded, AGM and Gel Cell".

The wiring diagram for the DuoCharge shows wiring the alternator + output directly to the house battery, then to the input side of the DuoCharge. The FLA house battery is connected to the output side of the DuoCharge.

Will the DuoCharge support a house Lithium battery and do I need to upgrade the voltage regulator to a MC-614?

I recommend a different setup: keep the alternator, start battery etc. all like it is now, then add one or more (depending on required charging capacity) Victron Smart DC-DC converters which can go from one battery chemistry to another. For 12V they go up to 30A so you could install 2 or 3 for maximum charge and redundancy.

Edit: here’s the data sheet incl. diagram
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...50-400W-EN.pdf

[scfoster]

Chris, thanks for the quick response. This would save me so serious $$$ by not having to change out a lot of equipment.

After reading the SB I have a question. Page 3 Additional Notes states:

Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may disconnect the battery from the alternator when charging is complete. The regulator needs to be shut down before the battery is disconnected as running an alternator without some type of load will damage the alternator.

Does the addition of the DuoCharge take care of this requirement, ensuring there is an available load to the start battery if the LiFePO4 house battery disconnects?

Steve from Seabits added a AP12D Sterling Power Systems alternator protection device. At $89 it's cheap insurance.

[scfoster]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I recommend a different setup: keep the alternator, start battery etc. all like it is now, then add one or more (depending on required charging capacity) Victron Smart DC-DC converters which can go from one battery chemistry to another. For 12V they go up to 30A so you could install 2 or 3 for maximum charge and redundancy.

Spoke to Balmar tech support. The DuoCharge will "work" but was told it would chronically undercharge the engine start battery.

The MC-612 can be reprogrammed (thanks Chris) which is a laborious process but doable. Given the age of the regulator and pushing the 100A 90-100 Balmar alternator, it was suggested to upgrade the regulator to a MC-614 and larger alternator. This would required the addition of the serpentine kit for the Yanmar 3GM30F engine.

So looks like the best route is to remove the DuoCharge.

Question is... then what?

There are some potential paths (1) charging the LiFePO4 house bank directly, adding the Sterling Power Alternator Protection Device, then installing a House LiFePO4 bank to FLA engine start battery charger (as s/v Jedi recommended). Battle Born has references it on their website.

(2) install a Sterling Power Alternator to Battery charger, which is similar to the DuoCharge but supports both a LiFePO4 house bank and FLA engine start battery. They're not cheap at $446.



If someone has the tags to embed YouTube videos, let me know and I'll edit this:
https://youtu.be/qXW47g6npms

[witzgall]

Stand by - I have more to say on this but give me a bit of time.

Chris

Originally Posted by scfoster

Spoke to Balmar tech support. The DuoCharge will "work" but was told it would chronically undercharge the engine start battery.

The MC-612 can be reprogrammed (thanks Chris) which is a laborious process but doable. Given the age of the regulator and pushing the 100A 90-100 Balmar alternator, it was suggested to upgrade the regulator to a MC-614 and larger alternator. This would required the addition of the serpentine kit for the Yanmar 3GM30F engine.

So looks like the best route is to remove the DuoCharge.

Question is... then what?

There are some potential paths (1) charging the LiFePO4 house bank directly, adding the Sterling Power Alternator Protection Device, then installing a House LiFePO4 bank to FLA engine start battery charger (as s/v Jedi recommended). Battle Born has references it on their website.

(2) install a Sterling Power Alternator to Battery charger, which is similar to the DuoCharge but supports both a LiFePO4 house bank and FLA engine start battery. They're not cheap at $446.



If someone has the tags to embed YouTube videos, let me know and I'll edit this:
https://youtu.be/qXW47g6npms

[witzgall]

Battleborn has suggested charging voltages of 14.4v-14.6v. Lithionics is at 14.5v bulk. At either of these voltages, you will fully change a LA battery.

Actually, anything at 12.9v or up will fully change a LA battery, abit more slowly. At the low end of that scale, it will be very slow.

If you are using a traditional flooded battery for starting, you can equalize (with a shorepower charger) once or twice a year if you are worried about sulfation.

If your start battery is truly only being used for starting, it just does not get discharged much at all. Here is a video showing that from Mainesail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrQX...ature=youtu.be

This is why the DDC, when used to charge a start battery from a house battery works well. It is not difficult to install, and is quite compact in size.

Chris

[scfoster]

Originally Posted by witzgall

This is why the DDC, when used to charge a start battery from a house battery works well. It is not difficult to install, and is quite compact in size.

Chris

I'm assuming "DDC" is the DuoCharge? I was scratching my head about it as well. I agree the start battery doesn't use much power and isn't used for anything other than starting.

I'll just add the Sterling Power Systems Alternator Protection Device for good measure.