Electrical Design Lagoon Catamarn with Victron

[mannykaiser]

I have replaced my charger/inverter and Isolator with :
* Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 Inverter Charger
* Three units of Argo FET 200-3 Battery Isolator

* Venus -GX
* Three Units of Smartshunt 500A
* Cyrix-CT 120A
The concept is that on a catamaran we have three charging sources:
1. Left engine Alternator
2. Right Engine Alternator
3. Shore power (via the Victron Multipluss Charger)


The Catamaran has three battery banks
1. Left engine batter
2. Right engine battery
3. Domestic battery bank



My request from the marine electrician :
1. When the Left Engine or Right Engine or Both Engines are running all batteries will be charged
2. When shore power is connected all batteries will be charged


The first setup was without the Cyrix. We discovered that while sailing (no engines are running), the domestic battery was charging the engine batteries
The electrician then asked we add a Cyrix, which we discovered prevented the inverter from running while sailing.
Any ideas?
Thanks
S/V Anika
Lagoon 380S2 Hull # 362 (2006)

[MerMike]

You need a controllable relay in place of the Cyrix. Unless the alternators are charging, the Cyrix will keep the contacts open. There would be no current feeding the Multiplus.

[alaskanviking]

looking over your schematic, and seen some issues that dont quite make sense.

isolator 3 doesnt need to be there, and you have wired it to essentially charge the starter batteries.

the output cables arent correctly wired. output 2 and 3 on the argos is connected to the start batteries. output 1 is connected to the bus panel, but should be connected to the house bank.

flow should always be to the house bank. your alternators are set up to charge the starter batteries. those arent very big compared to your house bank but the voltage sense and temp wires are not referencing the house bank. this could be dangerous actually.

this configuration is likely the cause of your issues.

coarse of action 1 (COA1)

• remove the isolater 3 argo and the cytrix.
• connect the output 1 of both engine argo's to the house bank positive connector
• connect a new cable from the house bank positive to the bus panel with appropriate fuse.

COA2

• remove all aros and replace with "alternator to battery charger" units. wire all direct to house battery
• use cyrix or "battery to battery" chargers from house bank to each starter battery bank.
• connect a new cable from the house bank positive to the bus panel with appropriate fuse.

COA3

• remove all argo's
• wire alternators direct to house bank
• use cyrix or "battery to battery" chargers from house bank to each starter battery bank.
• connect a new cable from the house bank positive to the bus panel with appropriate fuse.

COA4

• remove all argo's
• wire both alternators to a 2 alternator to 1 battery bank isolator.
• use cyrix or "battery to battery" chargers from house bank to each starter battery bank.
• connect a new cable from the house bank positive to the bus panel with appropriate fuse.

I reccomend COA1, COA2 or COA4.

argos and other battery isolators drop voltage due to the diode's they use. this reduces thie alternator power and efficiency. generally this is minor and dual engine boats are set up this way all the time. the argos dont seem to have much voltage loss. the other issue is synching 2 alternators, a common problem with dual issues. can cause a lot of issues if its not done correctly. if you are stuck on this than I reccomend you get the dual altenator type isolator instead.

again all power generators should go to the house terminal or a power bus bar connected to the house bus.

starter batteries arent generally using much juice. just starting the engine really. you dont need massive charging systems for them. a simple cyrix is all you need, one per starter bank. this is how i charge my anchor windless/bow thruster bank. better than the argos is a battery to battery charger. victron makes one now. all you need is 10-20 amps tops. this gives you a smart charger for your starter banks, and eliminates the two alternator issues. you will have dual alternator issues when running both engines for docking ect.

victron and sterling have battery to battery chargers. instead of argos you can go with an alternator to battery charger. this eliminates the issues from dual alternators and gives you a smart charging source. you can also use smart regulators but that doesnt nessesarily remove the dual alternator issue. you have to really check the manuals on those devices.

sterling makes an alternator to battery charger. you can double these up for large alternators but honestly that worries me. if you have one go out and all the load drops to one i dont think that bodes well for the remaining unit. however this would work good for a redundancy setup ie a 200 amp alternator or less into 2 200amp alt to bat chargers.

an alternative to a battery to battery charger or an alternator to battery charger is a standard MTTP solar controller. i contacted victron and they said this would work, however they dont have a lot of practical use examples so if something breaks i got the impression you might not get a lot of help, or full understanding of your setup when troupleshooting problems.

v/r

robert

[alaskanviking]

attached is a quick simple sketch how the dc positive bus should be connected. insert appropriate fuses, argos/battery isolators, or chargers in the appropraite places.

V/R

Robert

[mannykaiser]

Alan thank you for your detailed response.
I made a slight error in the diagram and have corrected the diagram adding the missing cable on the input lug of the Victron Argo FET 200-3 Isolator of the domestic bank (see enclosed diagram).
What I might do is change the Cyrix-CT 230A connection (see enclosed diagram) and connect the "Power Assist" cable to the Victron Venus GX so that when the charger is working the contact will be closed allowing the charger to charge the two engine batteries in parallel to the domestic batteries. When the charger is not working the Cyrix will prevent the domestic batteries from charging the engine batteries.



Some background.
This is a new system planned by the local Victron rep technical support.
It replaced the old Sterling system I had (inverter charger and power management coupled with a isolator)

I was not happy with the support I received from Sterling both at the local level or at the HQ level. Thus, I decided to switch vendors when upgrading the system. Regretfully, Victron support has not been much better.



As to your suggestions. I do not plan on replacing the new equipment that I just acquired and will need to make the best I can from the new equipment. The Cyrix was an add-on after installing all the equipment I discovered that when sailing, the house/domestic batteries were charging the two start batteries which is not what I wanted.
I have added pictures of most of the equipment installed.

[alaskanviking]

I fully understand wanting to keep the equipment. I switched to victron gear as well. Just have a sterling smart regulator left. Looking at argo 3 I believe I understand what's going on. You did not attach your revised system layout to verify.

Your Argo3 is actually a clever way to use a single cyrix to charge the two start batteries. You actually don't need to change this. I may steal that idea actually, since the argo is low/no loss.

Your problem is due to the combining your charging bus with your dc bus. The argos make the separate charging bus. They use diodes, so are one way like a check valve. The output one from the argos 1&2 is connected to the dc panel. It should be connected to the house direct. Charging systems should connect directly to batteries or use a victron lynx distribution system https://www.victronenergy.com/live/dc_distribution

A separate cable from the battery to the dc panel should be connected. The inverter charger either connects to the dc panel, unless it's 3k or larger. If it's a bigger one it should also connect to the battery direct with fuse and service disconnect switch. This will restore your ability to use the inverter once disconnected from shore power

It's not working because it's connected to the output 1 from the argos to dc panel. Your house battery is only connected to your panel through argo 3 into argo 1&2 then to thier output 1. This was free flow before, but once you added the cyrus it only opens when it detects a charging voltage, essentially cutting off your dc power. I'm surprised you weren't having other issues with dc power.

[alaskanviking]

I have the same inverter charger, older model. If I remember correctly the manual says your supposed to use 2 1/0 cables for positive and 2 for negative. The positive cables are for charging or to supply the inverter portion. They're supposed to go to / charge the house bank with appropriate fuse and switch. So you can't simply connect to Argo 3 input.

I don't recommend connecting the positive cables to the dc panel. Lot of power moving there. Even in the lynx system each battery would be on the left distribution panel and the inverter charger would be on the right panel. the DC panel feed would have its own fuse on the right as well. The alternators and charging bus would be attached directly to the batteries and wouldn't tie into the lynx but would be monitored from the negative shunt

mine multiplus has a second 10 or 15 amp starter battery charge cable. I believe you can connect that direct to the Argo3 input to charge both start batteries. May be issues with the voltage/temp sensors, not sure how that works with the argo

[alaskanviking]

In the pictures I see three tiny red wires that look like voltage sense wires. If so they should be connected directly to the batteries and not the argo.

The resistance in wire even the big cables you have is enough to change the voltage slightly. That can be enough to overcharge/undercharge your batteries.

[mannykaiser]

I have attached the missing electrical diagrams from my previous post2021 Jan 28 Anika Elec plan-1.pdf

Cyrix Connection 2020 Jan 29.pdf.
To the best of my understanding the Victron Argo 200-3 is not a Diode but rather FET technology:
"FET isolators allow simultaneous charging of two or more
batteries from one alternator (or a single output battery charger), without connecting the batteries together..... In contrast with diode battery isolators, FET isolators have virtually no voltage loss. Voltage drop is less than 0,02 Volt at low current and averages 0,1 Volt at higher currents."


This is one of the reasons I preferred this product and agreed to this configuration.
You recommended connecting a cable from the domestic batteries directly to the DC panel. In parallel the Multiplus needs to be connected to charge the domestic batteries. In addition, the Multiplus also needs to be connected to the Victron Argos 200-3 in order to charge the engine batteries. While sailing, the Domestic batteries need to be connected to the Multiplus so that we have 220v. Thus we find ourselves back at square one.
The three tiny red wires you mentioned power the Shunts.
All the cables used are 50 mm2 equivalent to #0 AWG.

[alaskanviking]

i had some time before i left work to put this together really quick. i can only do so much with powerpoint and had to keep things simple. i did not add the negative bus or switches/fuses to simplify.

the configuration i sent (Page 1) should get you going. it will restore full functionality, utilize installed equipment, and allow venus/colorgx monitoring. this should not cost much to change to, maybe a cable or 2.

page 2 and 3 are your layouts but i added notes to where the issue is and why your system isnt working as you expect.

I am still confused at why your not having other DC issues at sea, as your diagram appears to disconnect the house bank from the distribution panel with the cyrix.

as i state in the drawing i think the way you have the multiplus, house bank and distribution panel wired may be dangerous. normally those are all big cables connected to the house battery. you have a big enough bank to be concerned, however if it does work now if you ever changed to litium the potential amperage available on those wires would fry and melt stuff or worse. honestly 450ah's from your trojans likely has that amp potential.

at the end of the day, you do you boo, i am only reccomending. just makes the hair on my neck go up a little.

V/R

Robert

[alaskanviking]

i actually like your argo charging setup, other than the charging bus issues i point out in the drawing. i looked up the manuals and it will work for me also. will likely copy some of it when i dive into my electrical system this summer

V/R

Robert

[mannykaiser]

I think you were looking at an old version of the electric diagram. I have enclosed an updated version.
In addition, I have enclosed an updated version of the change.
The Multiplus I have has two lugs for positive and two lugs for negative connections. They are identical. The documentation states that they can be used to double the cables instead of using one large gauge cable (70mm2), as this might be unmanageable (there is no "optional starter battery charge ~10amps").

I plan on connecting the Cyrix "Power Assist" to the Venus GX dry contact and control the dry contact when shore power is connected. In other words, when the Victron Multiplus has shore power, the Victron Venus GX will provide power to the "Power Assist" connection of the Cyrix, whish in turn will close the connection. This will provide charging power to the two engine batteries when there is shore power.2021 Jan 29 Anika Elec plan-1.pdf

Cyrix Connection 2020 Jan 29 pptx.pdf

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by mannykaiser

I think you were looking at an old version of the electric diagram. I have enclosed an updated version.
In addition, I have enclosed an updated version of the change.
The Multiplus I have has two lugs for positive and two lugs for negative connections. They are identical. The documentation states that they can be used to double the cables instead of using one large gauge cable (70mm2), as this might be unmanageable (there is no "optional starter battery charge ~10amps").

I plan on connecting the Cyrix "Power Assist" to the Venus GX dry contact and control the dry contact when shore power is connected. In other words, when the Victron Multiplus has shore power, the Victron Venus GX will provide power to the "Power Assist" connection of the Cyrix, whish in turn will close the connection. This will provide charging power to the two engine batteries when there is shore power.Attachment 231563

Attachment 231564

I do see some mistakes in the diagram:

- the SmartShunts have a small positive wire for voltage measurement. In order to get these shunts to report valid data, this wire, which has a fuse included, must be connected to the positive battery terminal of the battery that the shunt itself is connected to the negative terminal. There may be no other connection to the negative battery terminal: any still there need to be moved to the “load” side of the shunt.

- the battery switch in the negative path is dangerous. If that is switched off, devices will find an alternative path over small wires that are used for things like powering the Cerbo etc. This will lead to significant damage. I recommend to remove it after first switching all batteries off.

- the Cyrix is connected wrong. The house battery must be directly connected to windlass, Multiplus, breaker panel and the first two ArgoFETs but not to the 3rd ArgoFET. Put the Cyrix in between and only switch it on when on shore power and you want to charge the start batteries.

[mannykaiser]

I will check to see if there is a change after moving the smart shunt positive connection - so that each smart shunt positive connection is connected to the battery it is monitoring. I thought that since the smart shunt is measuring the negative - the positive is like a bus. If the shunt was measuring the positive the negative would be connected to the negative bus.
The negative connection you see on the domestic smart shunt are for the Venus GX and the three ArgoFETs. In order to connect all these cables to the load side I will need to create a negative bus. - As the load from these items is negligible - I am not sure what I achieve by doing this.
The negative bus disconnects everything - it is directly connected to the battery. In the 15 years I have owned the boat I never used it. The only reason would be if I want to disconnect the batteries - I would shut off all positive and Negative battery switches.
I have updated the Cyrix wiring diagram - see enclosed:Cyrix Connection 2020 Jan 29.pdf

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by mannykaiser

I will check to see if there is a change after moving the smart shunt positive connection - so that each smart shunt positive connection is connected to the battery it is monitoring. I thought that since the smart shunt is measuring the negative - the positive is like a bus. If the shunt was measuring the positive the negative would be connected to the negative bus.
The negative connection you see on the domestic smart shunt are for the Venus GX and the three ArgoFETs. In order to connect all these cables to the load side I will need to create a negative bus. - As the load from these items is negligible - I am not sure what I achieve by doing this.
The negative bus disconnects everything - it is directly connected to the battery. In the 15 years I have owned the boat I never used it. The only reason would be if I want to disconnect the batteries - I would shut off all positive and Negative battery switches.
I have updated the Cyrix wiring diagram - see enclosed:Attachment 231583

I see you fixed the Cyrix issue with the new diagram

The other issues stand: the Smart Shunts need accurate voltage measurement of the battery monitored. Connect as close to the positive battery terminal as possible, making sure the included fuse is in the circuit.

The switch in the negative cabling: just know that switching it off when there is one or more positive battery switches still switched on will lead to extensive damage.

My recommendation is to take a good diagram like from Victron and only deviate from that when absolutely sure it is the right thing to do. That switch in the negative is not in any diagram. If you really want to disconnect the negative from a battery then it requires a switch for every battery with nothing else connected to the battery side of the switch, not even the smartshunt.