440: Yee freekin haw Finally have enough clams to buy a 440.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by mr336

Has anyone shopped both Caribbean and Med and made a decision to buy in the Med because of overall better condition/less sun damage. Seems to make sense on paper. I could always hire a captain to bring her home if overall condition and price hit the mark.
.

I have looked at and test-sailed boats of the same model and age that were for sale in the BVI and Croatia. There was less wear and tear in the Croatian boats for reasons explained by someone else upthread. I have also seen maintenance people at work in both places and would pick one of those Croatian mechanics or electricians over their colleagues anywhere else.

If you are looking for cheap 440s you can find some in the French Caribbean. In fact I have been advising someone regarding one that was almost as cheap as the cheapest in Europe.

Keep in mind that ex-charter Lagoons do not come from Sunsail/Moorings, hence you do not get the comprehensive "phaseout" refit you get on the Leopards (and monos) from Sunsail/Moorings.

Also keep in mind that 440s are said to be probe to bulkhead issues and hard steering. A good surveyor who has looked at a dozen of them will be on top of the issues.

Fair winds

C



Sent from my GT-I9192 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by mr336

Has anyone shopped both Caribbean and Med and made a decision to buy in the Med because of overall better condition/less sun damage. Seems to make sense on paper.

Me back in 2010 when we were shopping for a boat to do a sabbatical trip. I looked at a lot of boats in St. Martin and Martinique because we wanted to save the Atlantic crossing. Most were around 8-10 year old 380s. I was disappointed by the overall condition of those we could afford. Most had not been used for some time and they showed badly.
At the end I bought a 410 in Spain in excellent condition.

[Thenaz007]

Congratulations! I come from a similar background where the allure of not pumping gas / diesel is nearly irresistible. A few considerations that have tempered but not eliminated my sailing plans:

1. Sails / rigging every 7-10 years $50K

2. Higher initial investment than a trawler.

3. Cat cruisers motor a lot

4. Intercoastal sail height 62 ft. max.

5. Wrestling with wet sails.

When I actually spent a week at a multihull liveaboard sailing school I found out that I loved it, which is ultimately much more important than perceived economy.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Thenaz007

5. Wrestling with wet sails.

In most cruising boats there is no need to actually touch the sails even when reefing, except when tidying up the main after taking it down. Of course you can learn to sail the hard way in te UK without stackpacks and roller reefing genoas, but that is only for you to enjoy it more later!

[Bulawayo]

From my little bit of experience since full time cat cruising (and having logged in excess of 75,000 NM), SEE BELOW.

Originally Posted by Thenaz007

Congratulations! I come from a similar background where the allure of not pumping gas / diesel is nearly irresistible. A few considerations that have tempered but not eliminated my sailing plans:

1. Sails / rigging every 7-10 years $50K
We re-rig completely when buying - we do this ourselves using Staylocks and a Loo rigging gauge. Saves a small fortune doing it ourselves and we then we know we are good for many years - at least 10 years if conservatively sailed. Sails we get checked and resewn / new UV protection, or even totally replaced. If either standing or running rigging and the sails need extensive work we factor this into the purchase price. We have helped a couple of friends when they make their purchases in this regard. Invest in a decent sewing machine too. Protect your sails extensively from UV and they can last a very long time.

2. Higher initial investment than a trawler.
That all depends upon what & how you are comparing.

3. Cat cruisers motor a lot
This has been debated endless, recently. Perhaps true in some markets but not correct for the cruising/liveaboards on their RTW trip that we meet. We sail. sail, sail and will only motor as a last resort. We sail off our anchor normally. Additionally, we do not have a diesel genset. You can see a lot of RTW boats similarly configured.


4. Intercoastal sail height 62 ft. max.
Errrr.....64ft? But only applicable for one stretch of water that really shall not affect or infuence a RTW cruiser.

5. Wrestling with wet sails.
Nope.....roller reefing and slab sails - not really correct.

When I actually spent a week at a multihull liveaboard sailing school I found out that I loved it, which is ultimately much more important than perceived economy.

A trawler has one means of motive power, under engine(s). A sail boat generally have sails supported by motor(s).

[mr336]

So I've changed my percentage of Caribbean to the Med as far as favoring one location over the other. A trip from the Med back to Florida would be just amazing with a hired captain. But it does depend where in the Med. It show is a big place.

Thenaz007 will it really be in the 50k ballpark for sails and rigging? Glad you brought that up. And I understand there's many factors involved to determine a real number. Also can you provide a few details on the multihull liveaboard sailing school? This sounds interesting.

Any passing thoughts or recommendations on "must stop by equipment booths"? I plan on installing solar along with related system equipment. Anyone ever pay a company/person to design a system only and then install it themselves?

Is there a meter that keeps track of how many questions a member asks? I hope it accepts dollars cause dem quarters are gonna get mighty heavy.

I do plan to take a year or so to prep, repair, update or install necessary safety and comfort systems before we head out.

Cheers and thanks to all

Mike

[Bulawayo]

A lot shall depend upon your sail selection - we rely on a main with three (not two) rows of reefs, a roller reefing genoa (usually only 125%), a storm jib on an inner stay and a light air sail (asym with sock). The cost shall be reliant upon your specification.
Similar applies to the rigging. If you re-rig in somewhere like Turkey the costs can be very much lower than somewhere like Italy and again is dependent upon terminal selection. We always elect for Staylock as we can can repair /maintain these ourselves. I would say that based upon prices we got two years ago and allowing for a 7.5% uplift that you shall be looking at close to $35k (I am assuming materials similar to a V45 cat) to replace standing rigging & basic sail wardrobe. If you rerig, keep the longest old stay that you remove, if in good condition, and ensure you have correctly sized terminals, and you then have a spare. You could rely on a rigger giving you a report and that is something you have to manage. However, no rigger will give you any warranty on an existing rig installation that is about to go trans ocean unless they completely dismantle every component and then the costs rack up so its usually more economical to re-rig. The security of such is peace of mind and could even be an insurance requirement. This last is worth checking as some insurance company's shall have caveats for a second hand boat going off-shore.
Do not overlook having the mechanicals thoroughly checked over as there is big money laying there, especially with two engines, and a genset set. At least get a compression check done and verify the hours and service history. Dont over look the gearbox's/final drive, nor the standing rigging although that is relatively small fry - but pretty awkward if you suffer a failure off-shore without any spare lines. Dont overlook the battery bank which can also be another big ticket item, then there is the dinghy/outboard combo and ......................
There's a plethora of other things to validate before leaving the dock that can also rack up the $'s. I prefer to each check these myself. There are plenty of suggested lists available - so download some of these and work out what you can do yourself.

Originally Posted by mr336

So I've changed my percentage of Caribbean to the Med as far as favoring one location over the other. A trip from the Med back to Florida would be just amazing with a hired captain. But it does depend where in the Med. It show is a big place.

Thenaz007 will it really be in the 50k ballpark for sails and rigging? Glad you brought that up. And I understand there's many factors involved to determine a real number. Also can you provide a few details on the multihull liveaboard sailing school? This sounds interesting.

Any passing thoughts or recommendations on "must stop by equipment booths"? I plan on installing solar along with related system equipment. Anyone ever pay a company/person to design a system only and then install it themselves?

Is there a meter that keeps track of how many questions a member asks? I hope it accepts dollars cause dem quarters are gonna get mighty heavy.

I do plan to take a year or so to prep, repair, update or install necessary safety and comfort systems before we head out.

Cheers and thanks to all

Mike

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by mr336

Thenaz007 will it really be in the 50k ballpark for sails and rigging? Glad you brought that up. And I understand there's many factors involved to determine a real number. Also can you provide a few details on the multihull liveaboard sailing school? This sounds interesting.

I don't know about rigging cost but just for main & jib 15k should be enough for crusing sails. Plus any spinnaker or whatever you deem necessary.

But sail change is not always necessary. On a private weekend & holiday boat sails can be good enough for cruising after ten or fifteen years. If they are taken off and probably even checked by a sailmaker at the end of the season. That is not uncommon in the Med.
And some charter companies seem to change sails more often than some sailors change their pants. So just look at what each boat comes with.

[mr336]

As I sit here eating my shrimp with lobster sauce with brown rice sipping on my second Mai Tai, I realize the importance of considering each system of a boat when formulating my offer and max price I'm willing to pay. I believe a logical final number can be closely obtained and agreed upon by both parties sans emotional ties. Therein lies the problem and the challenge when both parties need to see eye to eye.

I'm off to create depreciation values for each system on an XX year old 440. Now I just need to acquire the replacement/upgrade values.

Oh boy. . .looks like I forgot the listing brokers influence. Where's the garbage can?

Cheers

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by mr336

As I sit here eating my shrimp with lobster sauce with brown rice sipping on my second Mai Tai, I realize the importance of considering each system of a boat when formulating my offer and max price I'm willing to pay. I believe a logical final number can be closely obtained and agreed upon by both parties sans emotional ties. Therein lies the problem and the challenge when both parties need to see eye to eye.

I'm off to create depreciation values for each system on an XX year old 440. Now I just need to acquire the replacement/upgrade values.

Oh boy. . .looks like I forgot the listing brokers influence. Where's the garbage can?

Cheers

This has been discussed here quite often. These formulas are worth exactly nothing.

Realistic deprecation of a most pieces on a boat depend on age, use and maintenance. Then add emotional attachment of the owner and the influence of the broker.

Your formula can only work with "age" as that is the only factor that is really known.

What sail is worth more: 10 year old with a caring owner that puts the sails in the lazybag after every use and takes them off after his holiday, bringing them to the sailmaker for checking? Or 4 years old never taken off at all with a lazybag that doesn't even fit ?
And that is just one component.

At the end the market determines the price, not some formula.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by rabbi

This has been discussed here quite often. These formulas are worth exactly nothing.


At the end the market determines the price, not some formula.

Well said, that man.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by mr336

As I sit here eating my shrimp with lobster sauce with brown rice sipping on my second Mai Tai, I realize the importance of considering each system of a boat when formulating my offer and max price I'm willing to pay. I believe a logical final number can be closely obtained and agreed upon by both parties sans emotional ties. Therein lies the problem and the challenge when both parties need to see eye to eye.

I'm off to create depreciation values for each system on an XX year old 440. Now I just need to acquire the replacement/upgrade values.

Oh boy. . .looks like I forgot the listing brokers influence. Where's the garbage can?

Cheers

I thought I smelled rum here...

[Two Drifters]

Originally Posted by watevaworx

The 230v thing can be a bit of a pain
Glenn

We have a 230v boat, but to be honest it does really matter that much as we have 4x 140w solar panels and big battery bank. We left the marina in March and did not plug into shore power till we got back in October.

Cannot rate solar highly enough

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Two Drifters

We have a 230v boat, but to be honest it does really matter that much as we have 4x 140w solar panels and big battery bank. We left the marina in March and did not plug into shore power till we got back in October.

Cannot rate solar highly enough

Exactly. 220v becomes only an issue if the boat is to become a dock queen. We don't even plug in when we are in a marina.
Our boat is only plugged over the winter to run the dehumidifier 24/7

[Two Drifters]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Exactly. 220v becomes only an issue if the boat is to become a dock queen. We don't even plug in when we are in a marina.
The boat is only plugged over the winter to run the dehumidifier 24/7

Ha ha - ditto. Oh and the Electric kettle to save on gas.

Everything else runs off the batteries to include, coffee machine, big tv, water maker, etc etc...