450: Large Symmetric spinnaker

[Two Drifters]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Getting it for a race not a cruise.

with

No offense meant. And I like the 450. But if you want a big spinny for racing why did you buy a 450?

[Two Drifters]

Looks like a screacher. Flat cut genneker for reaching.

We have one. Great in winds 70 to 140 degrees. We fly it up to App wins of 15 to 20. Which past the beam means we have had it up in 25 to 30 true. To roll up in high winds blanket with main.

It is also good for wing on wing.

But it is not a down wind sail. And if you have a roller fuller you cannot easily pull it to one hull or the other.

If you need to get further offrom the wind an asymetric or fulcer genneker in a sock flown from one hull or the other is the answer.

But as for the sail you have not working keep trying as we find ours superb in the right conditions

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

Hi guys,
Can anyone please help. I'm embarrassingly green and new and struggling with our gennaker. When we agreed to buy our boat, I discussed with our broker that I'd like a sail for broad reaching on long distance sails as we plan to sail around the world. It's become apparent to me that what we got is not necessarily what we really need. Plus I'm having real truoble flying it. In fact, everyone hates the sail but I won't give up.

I'll attach a pic of exactly what we got including sizes, I'm not even sure if it's a gennaker?

We also got a furling system as we are new, the plan was that this would make our lives easier until we got more confident. I always planned to drop the furled sailin strong winds and store it but our sail when furled is sooo loose the wind pulls the top out and we have not even tried to launch or recover in anything over 10kts.

Also our sail is much thinner than expected and really only good for very light winds which is fine but we will need something for down wind in 15kts plus.

Sorry if this is a high jack but I thought you guys are the right people to ask.

Looks like a gennaker, but is a bit flatter in cut to the one on our L400. Flatter shold be easier to furl. Ours is good for 45- 150 degrees App in up to 20 kts. Not a real downwind sail, that's where you need a spinnaker or poled out foresails.

Furling it tight is a skill you will learn. Practice and teamwork. The problem is usually a tight foot and a loose leach. Try furling after turning beam on so that the sail is more evenly loaded top and bottom. If a crew member can hold down the clew whilst furling this may help. With practice, a crew can ease the sheet and also hold down the clew while another crew operates the furling line. Its a good idea to drop and store the sail after furling as it probably doesn't have a UV strip and you wouldn't want an unintentional deployment in strong wind.

Hope this helps.

[davedindubai]

Thanks for the help.
Will try beam on as we have been trying to furl it ddw to keep the sail off the boat. Yes, we seem to get a very tight foot and loose leach with the foot bunching up near the furlex.
Will try more tension on the sheet too. It's not easy with only 2 or 3 on board and was thinking a sock would be easier?
Much more practice needed but as long as we don't break anything, that's fine.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Two Drifters

with

No offense meant. And I like the 450. But if you want a big spinny for racing why did you buy a 450?

No offense taken. See post #9. A lot of sailors are ex racers and have it in their blood and will race anything from a beer can boat, to a superyacht. Check out the Heineken regatta at St Martin, L450s have won their division in the past on a handicap system, really just social racing but competitive none the less. the ARC rally posts placings, indeed the manufactures quote the results when it suits them - but again all in good fun.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

Thanks for the help.
Will try beam on as we have been trying to furl it ddw to keep the sail off the boat. Yes, we seem to get a very tight foot and loose leach with the foot bunching up near the furlex.
Will try more tension on the sheet too. It's not easy with only 2 or 3 on board and was thinking a sock would be easier?
Much more practice needed but as long as we don't break anything, that's fine.

It may help to tighten the luff before furling. A sail maker also told us to pull the furling line from the same direction every time as the special furling cord gets a memory that can cause less then ideal furling up top.

We found that our gennaker (furling cord built into luff) furls better when wind is past 130 apparent, tight luff and slow release of sheet, but it does take practice, we get it right most times with just two people and the autopilot. We run it or the asymmetric to about 20 knots true on a reach. The Asymmetric is 2.5 oz cloth and can handle more pressure, we use a sock on that sail and go almost DDW to douse it behind the main.

Your sail could be used for broader reaching, even DDW, if you connect the furler to the windward bow, we have done this with the gennaker in the past. You can also loosen the halyard so the sail will hunt to windward. not the sort of thing to do if you want to gybe often.

In light air we have left the gennaker furler on the pole and wing on wing with the genoa sheeted with the other spinnaker sheet, no mainsail. To avoid sail collapses we put the auto pilot on wind vane mode so the boat stays at the correct angle to the wind (it warns if going too far off track)

[davedindubai]

I think from what you say that we should have the anti twist rope for the luff?

Part of our problem is trying to fly and furl in not enough wind so had a bit more success yesterday with 10kts on the beam. We ended up with a nice tight foot and the top half loose as usual.

Regarding fitting the furler on the wind ward bow, how strong a fitting would I need to fit? I've attached a pad eye to each bow with 3 tapped coach bolts but they only tapped in about 10mm so I'm not sure on the vertical loading they would take? Any ideas? I doubt what I have fitted would be sufficient.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

I think from what you say that we should have the anti twist rope for the luff?

Part of our problem is trying to fly and furl in not enough wind so had a bit more success yesterday with 10kts on the beam. We ended up with a nice tight foot and the top half loose as usual.

Regarding fitting the furler on the wind ward bow, how strong a fitting would I need to fit? I've attached a pad eye to each bow with 3 tapped coach bolts but they only tapped in about 10mm so I'm not sure on the vertical loading they would take? Any ideas? I doubt what I have fitted would be sufficient.

You will have "anti twist" rope in your genaker luff already.

Sounds like your furling is improving with practice. Perhaps try furling while pointing a bit further off the wind ie. bear away a bit more? Also, if you have spare crew, pull down on the cringle using the lazy sheet while furling.

I'd be perfecting your gennaker fixed to the prodder before you start moving the furler from side to side. One step at a time! Pad eyes and blocks should be through bolted using backing plates or else disaster is courted.

[Bean Counter]

Agree with Tuskie regarding pad eyes.

Have you got a photo of sail unfurled. not sure if we are talking about the same type of sail, ie. gennaker with anti twist line built into the luff of the sail, or an asymmetric that has a separate antitwist line that wraps the sail around itself,

[davedindubai]

Regarding the bow pad eyes, I do plan to fit something substantial but on the 450s the bows are foam filled to a point slightly aft of the location on the bows where I have fitted the pad eyes. (I fitted the pad eyes to run our gennaker furling line thru). So to install backing plates, bolts etc I'll need to 'dig out' some of the foam, bolt thru and then replace the foam.

Here's a pic of the furler and I'll try and post a vid I took too which shows the shape better.

[davedindubai]

Here's a short vid of my embarrassing efforts.

[Bean Counter]

That's a pretty sail!

Looks like anti-twist line is built into luff.
Remember to furl in same direction all the time. We always pull from the right of the furler.

Not much wind there. In really light stuff you can ease both the gennaker halyard and the sheet to get sail to fly. Keep easing sheet until luff starts to knuckle and then sheet in a foot or two. If mainsail is right out it will cause collapse, try with main sheeted in for practice, or try with no mainsail. If gennaker has tell tales, make sure leeward ones are flowing horizontal, it is important these are not twirling around / stalled. With an eased halyard (1 to 2 ft) the luff of the sail will collect more wind and move to windward. When furling, first tighten halyard again. In Over 10 knots you can tighten gennaker halyard, and set main to correct angle and you will go a lot quicker. As an aside, in light air you can also ease the mainsail halyard a foot or so, this will bag out the mainsail for more downwind power. In the vid, your green windward sheet looks too tight, holding the foot in, this should be slack. If we are going in one direction we don't bother attaching the windward sheet.

Having the top of the gennaker a bit loose on furling is not that bad, it is not a good idea to sail with it hoisted and furled anyway due to UV and potential for strong gust to blow it out. We disconnect the furler at the pole and drop the furled sail down into the forward hatch as we release the halyard. We tie the halyard off to a side stay.

Not trying to tell you how to suck eggs if you know this stuff already.

[Catapault]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

No offense taken. See post #9. A lot of sailors are ex racers and have it in their blood and will race anything from a beer can boat, to a superyacht. Check out the Heineken regatta at St Martin, L450s have won their division in the past on a handicap system, really just social racing but competitive none the less. the ARC rally posts placings, indeed the manufactures quote the results when it suits them - but again all in good fun.

Definition of a a "Yacht Race "
Two sail boats going in roughly the same direction...

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Catapault

Definition of a a "Yacht Race "
Two sail boats going in roughly the same direction...

LOL too true

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

That's a pretty sail!

Looks like anti-twist line is built into luff.
Remember to furl in same direction all the time. We always pull from the right of the furler.

Not much wind there. In really light stuff you can ease both the gennaker halyard and the sheet to get sail to fly. Keep easing sheet until luff starts to knuckle and then sheet in a foot or two. If mainsail is right out it will cause collapse, try with main sheeted in for practice, or try with no mainsail. If gennaker has tell tales, make sure leeward ones are flowing horizontal, it is important these are not twirling around / stalled. With an eased halyard (1 to 2 ft) the luff of the sail will collect more wind and move to windward. When furling, first tighten halyard again. In Over 10 knots you can tighten gennaker halyard, and set main to correct angle and you will go a lot quicker. As an aside, in light air you can also ease the mainsail halyard a foot or so, this will bag out the mainsail for more downwind power. In the vid, your green windward sheet looks too tight, holding the foot in, this should be slack. If we are going in one direction we don't bother attaching the windward sheet.

Having the top of the gennaker a bit loose on furling is not that bad, it is not a good idea to sail with it hoisted and furled anyway due to UV and potential for strong gust to blow it out. We disconnect the furler at the pole and drop the furled sail down into the forward hatch as we release the halyard. We tie the halyard off to a side stay.

Not trying to tell you how to suck eggs if you know this stuff already.

Not at all. This is all saved for our next attempt which is hopefully today. Currently have 2.0kts of wind tho