400: Hull speed Lagoon 400

[tp12]

Originally Posted by tp12

I dunno, if you follow the history of his posts and what he's saying about being quicker than an overloaded, faster design then I think 44c's challenge is pretty fair. His boat is overloaded and from what I saw sailing on it yesterday it's still pretty quick. It's a full-time liveaboard complete with pet feline. No laminate sails or anything like that, either.

Of course you're right. It would whip even an empty Lagoon 400 with laminate sails but some of the chat here seems to indicate otherwise. Some people talk a good game... It's pretty common on this forum!

He even has a herb garden aft of the cockpit! We were sailing around and I was regularly getting whiffs of basil!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by MLOI

I did try and find where he said he'd be faster and failed. I should have tried harder, I guess.

Post #16

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

two different boat designs two different usages.

Lagoons are made to cross oceans in comfort and decent speed with lots of carry capacity.

Schionnings are made for coastal cruising shorter ocean passages more speed less comfort less weight carrying, adopted for AUS conditions. You overload, Lagoon will be faster

.

He's made similar claims repeatedly in fact.

But seems to have gone quiet now....

[MLOI]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

He's made similar claims repeatedly in fact.

But seems to have gone quiet now....

I just went back and checked the dimensions.
Lightship the 44c is just over 5 ton
Lightship the Lagoon is just on double that.
44c has longer waterline.

That's like a corolla trying to race my lotus 7. No-one could take the idea seriously, hence it must be tongue in cheek.

Even if you tried to load each of them up with 5 ton of weight, you're not going to increase the wetted area of the 44c enough to make up that difference. Downwind it might be closer, but upwind VMG would be miles apart.

Mike

[tp12]

Originally Posted by MLOI

That's like a corolla trying to race my lotus 7. No-one could take the idea seriously, hence it must be tongue in cheek

You're using normal logic, however. The gentleman in question has his own version. You haven't seen many of his posts, have you?

[arsenelupiga]

hope you guys enjoying racing in sydney harbour.

There are some talented bloggers in your group but this is what I mean:

Take 40 ft cat schioning or similar design, load it 5 T, load L 400 5 T. Then lets go passage to say NC. What I believe, my boat will be faster more comfortable and safer.

One can look at ARC results for any year to see all Lagoon designs excelling in ocean passages vs boats that should be much faster on paper.

SO take it easy and enjoy racing in flat seas and setting records for bar to bar time.

and btw, this is lagoon forum.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

hope you guys enjoying racing in sydney harbour.

There are some talented bloggers in your group but this is what I mean:

Take 40 ft cat schioning or similar design, load it 5 T, load L 400 5 T. Then lets go passage to say NC. What I believe, my boat will be faster more comfortable and safer.

One can look at ARC results for any year to see all Lagoon designs excelling in ocean passages vs boats that should be much faster on paper.

SO take it easy and enjoy racing in flat seas and setting records for bar to bar time.

and btw, this is lagoon forum.

We had a good day out on Monday, thank you. Might be back it with Alan for the actual racing, too.

I guess the attractiveness of building a straw man argument is you can suspend reality in order to get any outcome you like. It might turn out like you say, might not, but it's irrelevant because no one is going to put 5t worth of stuff on an Oram 44c performance cruising cat.

If we're keeping things real the Lagoon is going to be the slower boat. I don't know why you appear to be sensitive about the speed of your boat, though? It's a great boat and meets its design brief fine. Horses for courses, no?

[MLOI]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Take 40 ft cat schioning or similar design, load it 5 T, load L 400 5 T. Then lets go passage to say NC. What I believe, my boat will be faster more comfortable and safer.

Why do you believe that?
Rough numbers
Lagoon 400 11m waterline by 2m average width = 22 m2 area *2 = 44 m2
44C 12.5m waterline by 1.2m average width = 15 m2 area. *2 = 30 m2

So the rate of immersion is 440 kilos per cm for the Lagoon, and 300 kilos per cm for the 44c.

So your grossly overloaded 5 ton example has the Lagoon immersed 11cm and the 44c immersed 17 cm ( immersion past lightship for each).

At this point the 44c weighs approximately 10 tons, and the Lagoon weighs approximately 15. The 44c has a longer LWL

Is the argument really that an extra 6cm of immersion overcomes an extra 5 ton of weight and longer waterline?

Or is your argument more that people tend to cruise at a comfortable speed for the conditions, and that comfortable speed is similar for similar sized boats?

I really am curious as to what you think makes the Lagoon faster?

Mike
(I've got no dog in this fight, I have a mono slower than both of you)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tp12

If we're keeping things real the Lagoon is going to be the slower boat. I don't know why you appear to be sensitive about the speed of your boat, though? It's a great boat and meets its design brief fine. Horses for courses, no?

Exactly. I've never claimed to be able to carry as much. But we can carry enough for us. And a 44C has circumnavigated, so obviously could carry enough for that and was also able to win races along the way while doing so. But they wouldn't have been carrying 5 tonnes, and frankly I don't know why you'd want to.

Most Lagoon owners are realistic. Their boats are comfortable, spacious, can carry plenty of gear etc, quick enough, but sailing speed isn't really what they're intended for.

But there's the odd one who says his boat is really reaaaalllly fast, but when it comes down to it, seems unwilling to show us just how fast.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by MLOI

I just went back and checked the dimensions.
Lightship the 44c is just over 5 ton


Mike

Lightship a 44C should be closer to 4 tonnes.

[Dolphin460]

Are you Lagoon’s talking boat speed or SOG? If you are talking boat speed, I find it total useless for determining actual speed. SOG is much better but it has to deal with currents.

[Jweyndling]

I have a Fountain Pajot 43’ cat. Hull speed is probably about 10 knots but I have done 12 and even 15 when hit by a 50 knot squall with too much sail up. Downwind in big seas you get into surfing mode and then hull speed is not relevant. I have hit 22 knots for a few seconds. Even then the autopilot worked just fine and it didn’t feel dangerous.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Dolphin460

Are you Lagoon’s talking boat speed or SOG? If you are talking boat speed, I find it total useless for determining actual speed. SOG is much better but it has to deal with currents.

I was talking about GPS SOG, not sure what the others do.