Crew Wanted - Etiquette & Proper Customs

[kimberlite]

I have made a number of trips From N.Y. to The Carib, around Europe, Africa, and Trans-Atlantic. I believe I am a good captain and have never had a bad crewmember or have had Crew argue on board.
Our boat is always 100% Ocean ready and extremely well equipped.
We have hot showers every day and fine food and even gourmet food on all passages.
For the crew it is an enjoyable experience (I have never raised my voice at a crewmember), the food and boat are great. 3 hours on watch 9 off twice a day.

For the experience of these trips I expect my crew to pay their land based expenses (unless I do not arrive on time –then I pay for the hotel) and transportation to and from the boat.

I always have more crew wanting to sail with me than I have room.

Does anyone feel this is unfair.
Fair winds,
Eric
Kimberllite

[Charlie]

Kimberlite:

I really think that it comes down to what people are comfortable with. The trips you are talking about sound like fun. six hours of watches a day would be heavenly. I think that it really boils down to econ 101. What are you providing and how much are people willing to pay for it? I think what you are providing is equitable. Some seasoned sailors never get the chance to go offshore and they really want to. A trip like the ones you described sounds like fun. On the other hand if it was doing an upwind trip from CAbo to Seattle I don't know that I would be that interested.

[seagypsywoman]

Very interesting thread. My take on it is from the point of view of supply and demand. When there are more buyers than sellers, the price goes up and vice versa.

By the way, John Neil's operation states that "Mahina Tiare Sailing Expeditions are a cooperative venture by John Neal, Amanda Swan Neal and the co-adventures participating on each leg. It is understood that this is in no way a “crewed charter boat” ...all expedition members will be signed on as crew, not passengers, and will be processed as crew in each country visited." This is a split quote from the application form. So, what sort of an operation is this?

[Starbuck]

Eric,

The fact that you are awash in enthusiastic potential crew says they find your arrangements more than acceptable.

One point I have not seen here is get it in writing! For anything more than a weekend with friends, you should have a binding contract. Even if you are a paying passenger, you need a contract clearly defining your responsibilities, and the responsibilities of the skipper. It should address who is responsible for getting you back to where you started, getting you to your final destination if the vessel is unable to complete the trip, and an opt out if you get to the first port and decide the skipper is Capt Bligh. Verbal agreements are great if all parties stay honest, but a simple disagreement can leave you stranded along way from home. Food should be agreed upon ahead of time as well. Define 3 squares a day. As crew, you should be able to do a thorough inspection of the ship and her stores prior to signing on as crew. If you do not believe the ship is up to the voyage, or the gear is adequate, stay home. Any skipper that would refuse to agree in writing, and address these issues is not one I would sail with. By the same token, the skipper should expect the crew members to commit to the task. It is reasonable for a skipper to include a requirement of notice for crew that chooses to leave the ship. "I met a girl and am staying here for awhile" is not sufficient. As for pay, cost and benefit are the real question. If you need to get back to the US from the Bahamas, and your desire is to sail there, it may be reasonable to pay a fee plus crew work. That is an individual decision based on your personal cost benefit.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Obviously I can't speak for the whole of the UK (or Europe!)..........but my viewpoint on crew is:-

Family & Freinds

Owner / Skipper: pays EVERYTHING Boat related onboard and ashore. This includes providing all food and beverages onboard. Anything the Crew bring aboard or chip in with cash is just a bonus (and IME directly relates to whether they get invited again!). Ashore the rules are the same as without a boat including meals out. if you normally pay for all your family and freinds then you get to do so again! - otherwise any costs incurred ashore are negotiated / agreed seperately, because they are optional.

Flights home? the starting point is that the crew pay for themselves, BUT each case is dealt with on it's merits. If Bob from Accounts has been around Cape Horn 5 times then I may like him to be onboard for any long trips - but if I knew he could afford his ticket home I would not pay his return ticket, however if I knew that his 7th wife had just divorced him, the Inland Revenue (IRS!) were hot on his heels and he was living in a cardboard box, then I probably would pay his ticket home.

The Family & Freinds do the trip because they know you either need them or would just appreciate the help or would just enjoy the trip more in their company or the Skipper knows that someone would just fancy doing the trip...........and in exchange they get a cheap holiday , plus they get a skipper who accepts that the crew are not "his property" and does not act like Captain Bligh (no matter how much tongue biting is required by the Skipper!).

Crew:

Family & Freinds get a cheap holiday, they do not pay for any provisions aboard UNLESS they have "special" dietary requirements. Then the cost is down to them (addressed by them doing their own shopping!). But they should not arrive on the boat empty handed - if not sure what to bring ask the skipper, but IME a drop of Booze and snacks / goodies work well Although not essential I would consider it "good form" for the crew to treat the Skipper to a run ashore at their expense, in the style which is "normal" (i.e. if a night out normally consist of a trip to a McD then the Skipper is NOT allowed to suddenly develop a taste for Krug or require an all expenses trip to the local knocking shop......... unless this is part of your normal nights out )

Unkown Crew (For me this includes "Freinds of Freinds".)

Owner/ Skipper:

If I want crew then IMO a commerical deal applies. The rate and conditions are a matter of negotiatian and subject to the laws of Supply and Demand. (a January trip freezing ones nuts off in miserable weather accross the North Sea will be more expensive on the crew front than a trip from Greece to Turkey on clear blue sea under the hot sun in July).

Crew get paid.........NOT the other way around. Whether this payment be in "just" food and accomadation or also includes actual cash, it is still PAYMENT for services rendered. This fundametally changes the nature of the relationship between Skipper and Crew. The Crew are now "his property" and he can act like Captain Bligh and does not have to bite his tongue.........of course he does have to remember what happened to the good Captain! They are not onboard for a holiday, so they get no say in who does what and when (although IMO a good Skipper would try and be fair (ish ) .........but of course as their new Boss you do have a duty of care for them, plus if you do treat folk like cr#p you are probably being shortsighted.

Flights home? Although subject to negotiation, I would expect to pay for these. Indeed I would prefer to have either this or some other type of "bonus" kept in my pocket to assist in keeping the crew in line / motivated.

Crew: If you are not Family or a Freind then you are an Employee. You are NOT on holiday. Whether your payment is in Pizza or Pound notes (Dollars or donuts?? ) you made your deal and are now an employee and therefore you get to do as the boss tells you. Some bosses are better than others, that is just life. The fact that the boss is being nice to you doesn't mean he isn't your boss. If you didn't ask beforehand what the job involved or later find out it is a bit more work than just topping up yer tan, then tough. you can always leave if you suddenly decide you are instead a passenger you get treated like an unwanted guest (including not being paid - although I would still feed you!, if you were still vaguely co-operative........otherwise I might be tempted to treat you like a stowaway )


As a final comment IF I was trying to be crew myself I would not ever pay someone for the "privilige".........apart from a natural reluctance to part with money , it would tell me that the Owner / Skipper was either a Greedy b#stard and in which case he probably isn't someone I would choose to spend extended time with or that he was short of cash, in which case I would have doubts that the boat was properly maintained (quite possibly an unfair assumption for many........but I can afford to be choosey).

Of course I bought a boat I don't need crew for...........not to say I won't ever get any though........

[Boracay]

Has anyone used a written agreement for crew who are not friends/family?
In NSW (Australia) if you pay someone you need Worksafe insurance so the issue of a fair rate pay arises. Does anyone have any idea of what a fair rate of pay/conditions might be for a small yacht and crew who really want to be there.
I am thinking that a written agreement might cover:-
1) Indemnities
2) Hours of work
3) Sharing
4) Rates of pay
5) Photographic releases
6) Termination conditions
and thats just for a day on the harbour.

[Chuteman]

Sea Gypsy:
I looked at The Mahina Tiare Expedition but passed because of cost vs benefit.
I do know someone who did a leg NZ to Tahiti = $5,000 USD plus transportation & land expenses.
The sense I got was that he was able to experience what South Pacific water sailing">blue water sailing was like on a good boat, learned some stuff but there were some negative parts too.
Cooperative Venture...............humm, You pay that couple very high fees which allows them to move their boat around the world & they make more money writing articles in various magazines. It is more like a full commercial venture dressed up like some friendly cruising.

[terrydean]

good, imformative topic here.....as a newcomer to the crewing experience (been around boats, built them, sailed them in the past) i can see that there is alot of room for interpretation in the job of crewing.....it appears that crew are (as discussed here) pretty much "private contractors" insofar as its up to the individual to negotiate his/her "deal" with the owner (or whomever).....interestingly though, i mean where ELSE can this happen?.....one can end up as an employer (crew pays) or employee (skipper/owner pays) in the same workplace senario!!....either way SOMEONE pays.....and ultimately its a matter of striking a deal that is satisfactory for both parties......so thats how im viewing the "business" of the "business" at this juncture..."strike yer own deal and live with it".......now comes the real "business".....the part where no local, federal, global employment law governs.....the business of personal/working relationships...it either works or it doesnt.....it could be most unfortunate to have to live/work in cramped tight quarters with someone where the chemistry just doenst work out, we all have/have had some "idiot" at work that there isnt enough money in the payroll to work with/or under them.....but the major difference that is see is that at our traditional lines of work we can clock in, clock out....get drunk, go home kick the dog, yell at the kids/wife/husband in a (dysfunctional) effort to manage stressful working relationships....but on a boat.....well.....i suppose the parties could, get drunk, go and kick the **** out of each other to est the "work flow"....however that not all that mature, constructive nor healthy, for me anyway) and rarely has any lasting positive outcome......one could look at crewing like any other "job", you know...."work".......that the actual "work" is not that complicated nor difficult....however the REAL work is being performed in the interpersonal relationships that evolve and take place in the environment where "work" is done.......and in that there is far more to be learned from the business of working with others, teamwork, interpersonal relations, than there is in business of pushing paper, the desk job, the factory job, cooking, cleaning, or standing watch....


td!

[Boracay]

I am too old and time poor to sort through a total mismash to find the meaning.
Or is that the meaning?

[ssullivan]

Ha ha ha! Felt the same way, Chris.

Then it wasn't just me? TD, I am confused about your point. Are you saying paid crew positions are like any other job only different?

[44'cruisingcat]

There was a guy here advertising for crew to do the Sydney-Hobart. He was asking $6500 a head. He never got enough takers. (Not sure if he got any at all) No way I would have paid that kind of money anyway.

[terrydean]

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Are you saying paid crew positions are like any other job only different?

yes.

td!

[Lynx]

What happens if your crew member gets sick or hurt on board, paid or unpaid). Does the Captian/owner pay the medical cost?

Can a agrement before boarding make the crew liable?
(a borken leg could cut my cruise very short)