Radar recommendation

[Baby tug]

Originally Posted by dannc

GPS can be spoofed or jammed, and has been spoofed or jammed in the last year or so off the north coast of Norway, Baltic near Finland and China. I would guess the Black Sea might be a bit "interesting" at the moment.

I have seen my GPS do some wacky things and I was not in an area of conflict.

One does not need a limited or full exchange of nukes to degrade satellite based navigation systems.

Later,
Dan

Nothing personal if that’s the way you feel that’s way you feel , like I said nothing Personal , But i find it laughable , And just how is Radar going to help you when your GPS gets spoofed and what’s to stop them from spoofing your radar or using you as a target for a missile sent straight to your radar , I find it ridiculous . I haven’t had any trouble at all with my gps / nav app in well over a decade . I could go on and on , I’m sure you get it

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

Nothing personal if that’s the way you feel that’s way you feel , like I said nothing Personal , But i find it laughable , And just how is Radar going to help you when your GPS gets spoofed and what’s to stop them from spoofing your radar or using you as a target for a missile sent straight to your radar , I find it ridiculous . I haven’t had any trouble at all with my gps / nav app in well over a decade . I could go on and on , I’m sure you get it

Well, radar can be jammed but that is much more difficult to do. GPS and radar are two different technologies. It is easy to disrupt GPS over a wide area as I mentioned and it has been done. People are saying that GPS will not be disrupted short of an exchange of nukes which is NOT the case.

The whole missile comment absurd.

Radar can be used to navigate. It is another navigation aide.

I have been using GPS to navigate for over 30 years and have had my GPS provide inaccurate data.

Later,
Dan

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dannc

GPS can be spoofed or jammed, and has been spoofed or jammed in the last year or so off the north coast of Norway, Baltic near Finland and China. I would guess the Black Sea might be a bit "interesting" at the moment.

I have seen my GPS do some wacky things and I was not in an area of conflict.

One does not need a limited or full exchange of nukes to degrade satellite based navigation systems.

Later,
Dan

Gps can be jammed , practical over a relatively small area. Spoofing it is actually difficult , and spoofing reports have not been confirmed in relation to Ukraine. Spoofing a single target is technically feasible , spoofing multiple targets on a wide area is not practical. Read the peer review papers on the subject


Radar is very easily jammed

Widespread denial of GNSS ( there’s a lot more up there then gps ) is not achievable except in a huge global conflict , the last thing in your mind will be your body’s position in that likelihood.
GNSS is global , massively redundant and here to stay. It can be relied upon

[dannc]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Gps can be jammed , practical over a relatively small area. Spoofing it is actually difficult , and spoofing reports have not been confirmed in relation to Ukraine. Spoofing a single target is technically feasible , spoofing multiple targets on a wide area is not practical. Read the peer review papers on the subject

Radar is very easily jammed

Widespread denial of GNSS ( there’s a lot more up there then gps ) is not achievable except in a huge global conflict , the last thing in your mind will be your body’s position in that likelihood.
GNSS is global , massively redundant and here to stay. It can be relied upon

GPS spoofing and jamming has been reported, as I had said earlier, in the Baltic, off the north coast of Norway and China. The point is that people say that short of all out war, GPS will work, which is not true. There are cases of this happening already. And I have had interference with my GPS misreporting data which had nothing to do with China, Russia or other state actor.

Later,
Dan

[IslandHopper]

The misinformation about the value of Radar been disseminated in this thread is utterly mind boggling and less than amateurish, it's borderline fantasy....

[Caleb_Grey]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Gps can be jammed , practical over a relatively small area. Spoofing it is actually difficult , and spoofing reports have not been confirmed in relation to Ukraine. Spoofing a single target is technically feasible , spoofing multiple targets on a wide area is not practical. Read the peer review papers on the subject


Radar is very easily jammed

Widespread denial of GNSS ( there’s a lot more up there then gps ) is not achievable except in a huge global conflict , the last thing in your mind will be your body’s position in that likelihood.
GNSS is global , massively redundant and here to stay. It can be relied upon

You dont have a clue.
If radar was easily jammable trillions wouldn't be spent on stealth technology.
Short of a squadron of EA-6B Prowlers you are not easily jamming radar.
As for gps an individual can easily jam it for miles, just look up the newark airport incidents where truckers who used them to stop their employers from tracking them where taking out the atc towers ability to track planes.
The navy regularly jams gps off the florida coast from the surface, and can easily shut it off or spoof whatever they want from the satellite.

[dfelsent]

As was posted above. Fog. Radar. You really want it. If you don’t you have not spent enough time in thick fog. Especially the kind where you see the chunks between you and the bow.
Leave port and vis is less than a tenth of a mile for 8+ hours til you make landfall? And lots of recreational and commercial and fishing and small boat traffic? Oh you want radar. AIS? GPS? Omega satnav decca loran RDF etc? None of those will tell you about the traffic you don’t see.
Radar will.
And it is a great navigation tool as well. Find buoys. Land features. Track and avoid thunderstorms. That’s all part of navigating.

[shipahoy]

Sailed 82 nm along the coast of Norway last night. Even if the visibility was good, radar was very helpful. I detected all boats on the radar before I could see them. Only about half of the boats showed up on AIS.
33 nm of the coast is without any harbour or shelter, so it would not have been fun without radar if I had gotten fog.

[Bobby Lex]

At the risk of beating my point to death (for which I apologize in advance)....



I don't think that people are saying radar isn't a useful navigation accessory. Because it indisputably can be very helpful in many (though not nearly all) situations.

What is arguable, is whether radar is an essential navigation tool. Because sailors routinely and successfully and safely have sailed all over the world long before radar was even invented.

So, to my point, when building your navigation ensemble as the OP is doing, does it make sense to start with radar? Or does it make more sense to start with a chartplotter and build your system, including radar, around that?

For me, personally, I have never and would never leave the dock without some sort of chart system (electronic or paper or both), including backup. On the other hand, I can and have left the dock repeatedly without radar.

So when building an electronic navigation ensemble, I think it's a no-brainer to start with the most essential navigation tool -- a chartplotter -- and build everything else, including radar, around that.

Bob

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

At the risk of beating my point to death (for which I apologize in advance)....

I don't think that people are saying radar isn't a useful navigation accessory. Because it indisputably can be very helpful in many (though not nearly all) situations.

What is arguable, is whether radar is an essential navigation tool. Because sailors routinely and successfully and safely have sailed all over the world long before radar was even invented.

So, to my point, when building your navigation ensemble as the OP is doing, does it make sense to start with radar? Or does it make more sense to start with a chartplotter and build your system, including radar, around that?

For me, personally, I have never and would never leave the dock without some sort of chart system (electronic or paper or both), including backup. On the other hand, I can and have left the dock repeatedly without radar.

So when building an electronic navigation ensemble, I think it's a no-brainer to start with the most essential navigation tool -- a chartplotter -- and build everything else, including radar, around that.

Bob

Well, to each his own.

I would sooner leave the dock without an electronic chart plotter, than without radar. For me radar is the king of all nav electronics. Unlike the chart, which shows you what SHOULD be there, and where it SHOULD be, radar shows you what is REALLY there and where it REALLY is. For me that's invaluable for navigation as well as for collision avoidance.

Is it "essential"? Well people have crossed oceans in dugout canoes. By that standard nothing is "essential". All I can say is that if the Titanic had had radar, she would have made it to New York and would probably be a museum somewhere today. Radar is the only one of our various electronic wonders, which would have saved the Titanic. Just as one example.

[Bobby Lex]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, to each his own.

Unlike the chart, which shows you what SHOULD be there, and where it SHOULD be, radar shows you what is REALLY there and where it REALLY is.

But without a CHART you don't know where "there" is, do you?



Bob

[goboatingnow]

Radar does not show you a picture of what’s really there. Like all systems , it’s shows you a representation of what’s there, radar shadows , reflections , distortions and object that don’t reflect well , all can present a false picture

Again radar is an aid to navigation. The wise words of the colregs should spring to mind

“Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.
”

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

But without a CHART you don't know where "there" is, do you?



Bob

Who said anything about "without a chart"? I didn't

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

So, to my point, when building your navigation ensemble as the OP is doing, does it make sense to start with radar? Or does it make more sense to start with a chartplotter and build your system, including radar, around that?

This is the OpenCPN forum and I make the assumption he started with OpenCPN and now wants a radar that's supported by OpenCPN. I would do the same even though I'm not currently using OpenCPN.

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lex

What is arguable, is whether radar is an essential navigation tool. Because sailors routinely and successfully and safely have sailed all over the world long before radar was even invented.

So, to my point, when building your navigation ensemble as the OP is doing, does it make sense to start with radar? Or does it make more sense to start with a chartplotter and build your system, including radar, around that?
Bob

In my view the only essential navigation equipment is a chart, compass, depth sounding. Everything else is optional based on preference and/or budget.
You put chart plotter first as do many people and that is fine but some people can get by with a phone or handheld GPS.

The op is looking for advice on radar but we seem to want him to conform to our ideals and now he has to consider the ramifications of nuclear war in setting up his navigation system.