Prepping a Catalina 22 for the Caribbean

[Aswayze]

Have you seen the roads? I am fairly confident that I would be safer sailing a C22 around than I would be rolling down the highway in a 40 year old VW bus waiting to get nerfed off the road by some texting teenager.

In anything you do that involves risk of any
sort, there are never a lack of people around to tell you that surely doom shall befall you if you are foolhardy enough to continue.

The OP was asking for advice on what to do not what not to do.

[Jim Cate]

The OP was asking for advice on what to do not what not to do.

And so far, the advice from folks who have both Cat 22 experience AND open ocean passage experience is to NOT attempt to go past the Bahamas in his boat, but to either reduce the scope of his proposal or get a boat better able to cope with the proposed voyages.

Jim

[Scout 30]

Anyone remember the guy who tried to sail around the world in a San Juan 24?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Anyone remember the guy who tried to sail around the world in a San Juan 24?

And there is Webb Chiles, who HAS sailed around the world in various small craft, currently finishing RTW number 5 (IIRC) in a Moore 24...

BUT, even a San Juan 24 is a more capable offshore boat than a Cat 22.

Jim

[Scout 30]

Webb Chiles, the exception that proves the rule. If you've read his book you know you'd have to be crazy to do what he did and I think he might have been at the time.

I agree, the San Juan 24 is a lot more boat than the Catalina 22 but it's still not blue water capable as proved by the misadventures of Rimas Meleshyus.

[Hardhead]

Not to overstate it, but the issue is the swing keel much more than anything else. Such a passage can be done, if the weather does not turn bad.

The potential trouble is, you may be planning to go 100 miles between protected anchorages, and you are traveling at 5 mph - you have a 20 hour passage. 12 hours later a squall kicks up, and you are 8 hours from the nearest anchorage. The waves build to 6-8 feet, wind at 20 mph, gusting higher. You break a rudder pintle, and the boat gets broadside to the waves, or you get knocked way over by a gust. The boat heals over at the same time a wave drops off, and the 550 lb swing keel retracts (only kept down by gravity, the lock will not stop it) and the boat turtles, and then sinks like a rock. Or, the 550 lb swing keel slams back in, or, down, and the force cracks the fiberglass keel well. The boat starts taking on water and sinks like a rock.

There is a certain amount of luck involved either way. Not likely, but possible. It is a risk known in advance though with a swing keel boat. Really great boat, but that's a particular issue taking it offshore on a passage.


--I'll add to this, if I was actually going to do this, I'd tie a kevlar line between the bow eye, and down to the attachment point for the keel cable and around the end of the keel and back to the bow eye. Point being to try to prevent a keel retraction in a substantial knockdown offshore.

[marinabay]

Take a real good look at the bolts securing the pin for your swing keel
Mine (1976 I think) were 5/16" I am no engineer but I never really trusted the connection

[Scout 30]

I think the size of the cockpit is also a major problem. A wave over the stern & it'll be tough to recover.

[Lake-Effect]

So, a hopefully related question:


Say you're in a similar small boat - in this case fixed keel, transom-hung rudder, ability to secure washboards and hatches.... what could one do to weather a biggish blow when far from land?


Which of these are possible tactics in that size of boat:
- mainsail down, smaller jib, and you heave-to?
- sails down, some sort of sea-anchor or drogue? Tied to bow or stern?


Would there be any use in raising a storm-sail?


(this is armchair fodder while I wait for spring launch)

[Scout 30]

I think heaving to would be the best course of action. Lying to a sea anchor off the bow would be disastrous IMHO. A drogue might make sense but the boat has to be set up for it because the forces can be extreme.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And there is Webb Chiles, who HAS sailed around the world in various small craft, currently finishing RTW number 5 (IIRC) in a Moore 24...

BUT, even a San Juan 24 is a more capable offshore boat than a Cat 22.

Jim

In what way would it be more capable?

The SJ24 is a classic IOR hull with an undersized rudder. That means it's going to be somewhat touchy down wind, and will lack rudder authority when you try to broach. It will never hull speed, it stands a zero chance of surfing.

In terms of strength the C22 is built much heavier. It could be argued that the SJ has a better build quality but I don't see that making up for how much more glass there is in a C22 hull.

All that said, the boat needs to be a fixed keel version, not a swing keel. Over the long term the keel will work in the trunk and fatigue the structure. If you have swing keel you should find some way to wedge the top and bottom of the keel in the trunk to decrease the slamming loads on the trunk.

[jrau18]

Originally Posted by emilecantin

Fellow T22 owner here. These are notoriously overly built boats, I doubt the Catalinas are as solid, but they're probably plenty strong.

That said, I'd trust mine to go to the Bahamas no problem. We once encountered ~6-8ft waves in ~20-30kts winds on the St-Lawrence, it was pretty scary! For us, not for the boat, though.

The biggest concern with this size of boat is that they tend to have an outboard motor, which is much more sensitive to large waves (prop going out of the water, then motor ingesting water). That can leave you with no way to escape a lee shore in a heavy blow.

I've done a 10-day cruise on mine with my pregnant wife and 3 kids, and another 5-day cruise last summer, again with my wife and now 4 kids. There would be plenty of space for just one person. The biggest "comfort" issues are a lack of standing headroom, and no shade from the sun.

No offense to emilecantan, but this post underlines why these threads tend to have such wide opinions. Many people haven't "been there."

The Caribbean is nowhere near the roughest place I've sailed and I only cruised there for 6 months, so certainly don't have the most experience with the area. However, 6 to 8 feet seas would be average to below average between islands. 20 to 30 knots is average sustained winds between islands, with typical gusts above 30 knots on an average day. An average day also has the chance of a squall, which will have gusts up to 45 and push the waves up to 10 or 11 feet.

This is the average day I experienced. I did my best to pick weather windows and avoid worse than average days, but if you're living an extended cruise, sometimes weather might reverse at a time when you're at an island with no all weather anchorage.

Think about what points of sail a stock Catalina 22 should handle in those conditions. Now pick your upgrades to make it handle those conditions. Im not sure you will recognize the boat when it is done, and you still will need to seriously pick your windows carefully, especially for the longer stretches.

Keep in mind the safety net can be very different. If worse case scenario happens in US or Canadian waters, you're being picked up by the coast guard somewhere between minutes to up to 8 hours in the most remote areas of coastline.

In the islands, there may be no functioning local coast guard, so it might take a day or more for help to arrive. Plan accordingly.

[Stu Jackson]

Another real issue is/are sails.


I owned a C22, 1981, #10496 for many years, then a Catalina 25 for 13 years and now our C34 for the last 20+.

Our C22 had a 110 hanked on jib and a single reef mainsail. Interesting lack of options for SF Bay where we sailed when he had all three boats. A furler for a jib on a C22 is available, but usually not beefy enough for actually reefing a jib.

My hanked on jibs on the C25 were 85 (summer) and 110 (winter) jibs.

My ProFurl on our C34 has two jibs, too, 85 and 110. I never reef my jibs, I choose the right one for the right seasons.

Either way, having two jibs on a C22 is NOT something that would leave room for much else.

Regardless of where you sail the boat, or want to.

I've been sailing Catalinas since 1983. I sailed my C34 up the coast from SF to BC in 2016. They are built well.

But for a purpose.

The trip from Fl to the Caribbean is really not one for the C22.

Enjoy the Bahamas.

You'll learn what works and what you need to go further.

Safe Journey.

BTW, I posted this link on another thread on this forum just today. Considering they did coastal cruising to Mexico from BC, one should ask themselevs the question: "What do I need on my boat to go further than the Bahamas?"

1500 Mile Interim Refit Report & 3596 Update & 5000 Mile link

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Adelie

In what way would it be more capable?

The SJ24 is a classic IOR hull with an undersized rudder. That means it's going to be somewhat touchy down wind, and will lack rudder authority when you try to broach. It will never hull speed, it stands a zero chance of surfing.

In terms of strength the C22 is built much heavier. It could be argued that the SJ has a better build quality but I don't see that making up for how much more glass there is in a C22 hull.

All that said, the boat needs to be a fixed keel version, not a swing keel. Over the long term the keel will work in the trunk and fatigue the structure. If you have swing keel you should find some way to wedge the top and bottom of the keel in the trunk to decrease the slamming loads on the trunk.

in what way? Well, lets see...

SJ24;
LOA 24
LWL 19.5
SA to D 18.19
D:L 154
Disp 3200
Ballast 1200 fixed Pb
Rudder: Fixed spade inside WL

Cat 22
LOA 21.5
LWL 19.3
Sa to D 18.17
D:L 192
Ballast either 550 or 800 depending on source (mine was 550) swing Fe
Rudder transom hung, maybe kick up, prone to ventilation

So, I see more structural weight in the SJ, so not likely less strongly built. I see over twice the ballast, and fixed in place and lead. I see a more conservative D:L ratio. I see plenty of power to achieve hull speed, and I'm sure it will surf on waves. I do see what is an early IOR design, and they did sometimes have squirrely habits downwind. I know from long experience that when driven hard, Cat 22s will broach, mainly due to the rudder ventilating at big heel angles and big weather helm then too.

I don't have numbers, but I suspect a bit more freeboard in the SJ, and likely less volume in the cockpit due to the pinched stern. Further, again without numbers, I suspect that the rig in the SJ is a bit beefier, since they were expected to use kites when racing, and at least when I was racing my Cat 22 kites were not allowed in the one design rules... and I know from experience that the rig was fragile.

So, I stand by my previous opinion that the SJ 24 is a better sea boat than the Cat 22. I would not undertake an ocean passage in either one.

Jim

[NormanMartin]

Hello:
My two cents on this topic is based on my twenty years of sailing in the Caribbean. I have little experience with the Bahamas or so called "Thorny Path." From what I read, it isn't that different a sail. I am working on the details of such a trip on my own boat.

So... it is roughly 1500 miles from Jacksonville FL to Antigua. That's about the longest leg you can plan while starting south of Cape Hatteras which is strongly recommended. At 4 knots you are looking at 375 hours or about 16 days straight. You can increase the number of days by island hopping but it will be hard to shorten the number of hours underway. The number of hours is roughly equal to 10 coastal cruising years. That's a lot of wear and tear so both the boat and the sailor must be tough stuff.

The trip is upwind all the way in winds and chop. Don't worry about the swells, just the chop. Consider that you will encounter a bit of big chop every 15 seconds, that's about 50,000 stop-go cycles in 375 hours. Anything that moves on the boat is going to be very stressed. A swing keel is out of the question. The rudder must be strong, very strong. Most small boat rigs are not up to the challenge either. Your main concern is stress cycles. My opinion.

A company for whom I work shipped a wing keel Beneteau First 235 to the Virgins for about 6 grand. Short money. Cheaper than sailing, I expect. BTW, the 235 is a nice boat if you see one for sale, take a look.

I love sailing the Caribbean and especially love the idea of doing it aboard a small boat. Pick a good small boat.

Norm
Harwich, MA