2015 Bahamas gun check-in update "boarded"

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

In a place like the Bahamas, which very likely has a higher percentage of cruisers traveling armed than just about anywhere else on earth (excepting Svalbard, of course :-)), I'm hard pressed to recall a single documented incident in recent memory where the discharge of a firearm by a cruising sailor saved the day...

And, that is a possible a component to that lack of use. I've spent a lot of time in the Bahamas, and most Bahamians expect U.S. cruisers to be armed.

And, not to be picking on Bahamian criminals, but criminals in general, the FBI did extensive research into trying to find out why criminals, after allowing themselves to be arrested numerous times in their lives, suddenly decided to kill a law enforcement officer who was trying to arrest them. The shocking uniform answer on why they did it? Because they thought they could get away with it that time because of something the officer did that made them think the encounter could be won.

Applying that to armed cruisers. Career criminals really don't have egos (in fact most of them are sociopaths and don't have much of any emotions, especially empathy). They don't look for challenges. They look for something easy. And, easy, is never anyone who you think is armed, if you can avoid it.

As a law enforcement officer, who has planned and engaged in thousands of arrests of felony offenders, I can tell you that we definitely took into consideration the likelihood of someone being armed when you are planning their arrest, based on informant information, observation and their criminal history. There were a lot of them, that if it hadn't been my job to do it, I would passed up trying to arrest. But, we had the advantage of time and numbers. (And, still, occasionally, we lost. Police don't' have the option of saying no, but criminals do.)

To think criminals don't operate the same way is naive. Non-gun carrying cruisers don't like to admit that they may be riding on the reputation of cruisers who do carry guns, when criminals choose not to choose them. But, the truth is, they are to a certain extent. Especially, in places like the Bahamas, where cruisers are allowed to have weapons without a lot of hassle.

But, just like in the U.S., there are a lot of times in the rest of the world, where someone with a gun, uses it to stop a crime, without firing it, and no report is made. That makes it hard to know. Read Professor John Lott's book on it if you're really interested in learning more. As a career law enforcement officer, I found his book to be spot on.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less.../dp/0226493636

But, I think most people have already made their decisions on this issue. Isn't this thread supposed to be about providing information to those who have already decided that they are interested in carrying a weapon while cruising, not trying to change theirs or anyone else's mind about that choice?

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Group9

Non-gun carrying cruisers don't like to admit that they may be riding on the reputation of cruisers who do carry guns, when criminals choose not to choose them. But, the truth is, they are to a certain extent. Especially, in places like the Bahamas, where cruisers are allowed to have weapons without a lot of hassle.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not ashamed to admit I'm happy to take advantage of the reputation for packing that American boats may have... When I'm sailing in the Canadian Maritimes, for instance, I'll take in the American ensign hanging off my transom after sunset, as is proper... If I'm in the Bahamas or elsewhere in the Caribbean, however, I'll definitely leave it out there all night long... :-)

However, given the reputation that apparently precedes Americans in the Bahamas, one might assume that Canadian cruisers, therefore, might be specifically targeted, and the victims of crime to a higher degree than us Yanks, no? Yet, I've never heard even any anecdotal reports that suggest this might be the case, and in any event it certainly doesn't stop Canadians for cruising the Bahamas, as they certainly seem to be doing so way out of proportion to Americans, given their country's population, and the far greater distance most have had to travel to get there...

If the Bahamas were to prohibit the bringing of guns into their country tomorrow, I doubt it would keep many Canadians from going there... it wouldn't make any difference to me, either, but I'll bet it would have plenty of other American cruisers thinking twice, however...

In any event, perhaps the Bahamas are not the best example... guess I'll just have to await all those reports from elsewhere of a firearm in the hands of a cruiser saving the day...

I won't be holding my breath, however....

:-)

[Robin3]

Got my attention as we are US documented and fly the US flag ( wife is American and the documented owner, me a gunless Brit) so the criminals will assume we have an arsenal on board ( we have nothing) and will in all probability arrive assuming we are fully armed and will shoot us before we get a chance to proffer a glass of something with a friendly request to go forth and fornicate elsewhere.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

In any event, perhaps the Bahamas are not the best example... guess I'll just have to await all those reports from elsewhere of a firearm in the hands of a cruiser saving the day...

I won't be holding my breath, however....

:-)

Here is the thing that continues to baffle me about guns and cruising. I could care less if someone who cruises decides not to carry a firearm or any other weapon for self defense. But, for some reason, the opposite does not seem to be true.

My motto in life is "Be Prepared." I don't expect that to be everyone's motto, but I would like others to respect my decision to govern myself accordingly.

And, I admit, I've had a few more thrilling encounters with bad people, than most people here, and it probably colors my view on things. But, people who tell you that you will never need a firearm to defend your life, don't realize how much credibility they give up when saying that to someone who already has used a firearm to defend their life, and maybe more than once. And, part of it is the sheepdog mentality, that Lt. Colonel David Grossman describes in his books on the subject. A lifetime of running towards danger instead of from it, is hard to change, even when it's not the smart thing to do.

Humor me. Read John Lott's book on his research on guns, self defense and statistics. You don't have to buy it. You can probably find it at your local library. I don't expect to change your mind, but only to try and help you see where those of us who think differently than you, are coming from.

I realize you don't have to do this or think about it. I just saying to consider it. Because of my career, I didn't have the luxury of not having to think about it. Everyone's life experience shape our actions, and our beliefs, the only problem being we all have had so many different life experiences.

[cofc]

Originally Posted by Group9

Here is the thing that continues to baffle me about guns and cruising. I could care less if someone who cruises decides not to carry a firearm or any other weapon for self defense. But, for some reason, the opposite does not seem to be true.

It's I couldn't care less. If you could care less, that implies that you do indeed care, possibly about it more than anything else in the world. "I could care less about having air to breathe" would be an accurate statement.

And I'm not arguing with your decision, but your logic is flawed. My lack of owning and possessing a gun can in no way cause you harm. Your owning and possessing a gun has the possibility to cause me harm.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Group9

... Humor me. Read John Lott's book on his research on guns, self defense and statistics ...

Tim Lambert, a Computer Scientist at the University of New South Wales, wrote a 47-page critique of Lott’s book. His paper revealed that the book title, “More Guns, Less Crime”, already gets everything about the gun debate wrong.
There weren’t significantly more guns, there wasn’t less crime, and guns wouldn’t have caused the decrease in crime anyway.

➥ http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/lott/lott.pdf

Many other studies have also discredited Lott’s research.

[capngeo]

Temporarily closed pending staff discussion