Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

[jtsailjt]

I feel that AIS and radar are in completely different categories. AIS surely has it's merits but it's WAY down the list from radar when it comes to avoiding hazards such as a wide variety of other vessels (not just AIS equipped commercial vessels and relatively few recreational vessels) as well as ledges, buoys, rain squalls, and other floating objects we may unexpectedly encounter. The biggest danger of collision with another vessel or object occurs when approaching the shore, and that's also when you are likely to encounter a plethora of "local" fishing or recreational boats that do not have AIS transponders and also may not be very adept at or focused on collision avoidance themselves.

Here in Maine, there are many hundreds of lobstermen who don't have AIS, and though their radar is turned on, they are focused on finding and hauling (while maneuvering in circles) their next string of lobster traps and rarely even glance at their radar screen until it's time to head to a different area. Legally, you may be the stand on vessel (though with constantly changing geometry due to the nature of the way lobstermen maneuver that may be difficult to discern), but you better avoid them anyway because chances are they aren't even aware of you. I realize that there aren't lobsterboats everywhere, but there are similar, unpredictable, hazards. For those who have done extensive cruising without radar aboard or who have chosen to not use it, all I can say is that you might be amazed by the close calls you've had if you'd bothered to have been "looking."

Also, unfortunately the "Mark One eyeball" doesn't work very well in thick fog or moonless/cloudy nights, or strong winds blowing salt spray that restrict visibility and make your eyes water or coat your goggles with salty streaks, and radar will keep "looking" even in nasty cold weather where even the most larger than life and nearly superhuman watchkeepers amongst us would be tempted to duck inside rather than keep a diligent visual lookout with their head outside the rain/salt streaked dodger windows, and since at least one of those conditions exist at some point during almost every offshore passage as well as while coastal cruising or approaching shore, I think anyone who thinks their eyeballs are a substitute for radar during conditions of restricted visibility are depending on others avoiding them, pure luck, or are trying VERY hard to fool themselves that their eyeballs are actually of the Mark Two type(the ones with the infrared and laser rangefinding options), but not being a licensed headshrinker, I wouldn't even dare speculate as to why.

Besides keeping us safe by avoiding all types of obstructions, radar is useful for backing up our navigation and making us aware of the rare occasion when things aren't just as chartplotter or chart is depicts.

Chances are that while offshore, the vast majority of "obstructions" will have an AIS transponder, but who hasn't been surprised by seeing something offshore that you never would have dreamt that you'd see, such as a floating shack or dock that's come loose in a storm, or a smaller boat that doesn't have a transponder and has no clue that you're there? Putting all your eggs in the AIS basket depends on all possible obstructions you might encounter having a transponder and that is a very long way from reality. I think AIS is great and hope its use becomes even more widespread, but there will always be things out there that only radar will make you aware of when visual conditions are less than great. I wouldn't have an ocean going vessel without it! While offshore, it's a rule on my boat that between sunset and sunrise, and during other times of restricted visibility, the watchkeeper WILL keep the radar in either standby or on, and at least every 15 minutes WILL make a long range and a short range scan around us to see what's out there. Often it's something that is also displayed on AIS but sometimes radar shows "something" is out there but the AIS doesn't show that and I'd hate to be blissfully unaware of all those "somethings" I've seen show up only on radar, and often when I least expected it.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by DotDun

.

Radar shows me reality vs. "suppose to be" in real time so I can make navigational decisions.

Very well said!....:thumbup:

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I feel that AIS and radar are in completely different categories. AIS surely has it's merits but it's WAY down the list from radar when it comes to avoiding hazards such as a wide variety of other vessels (not just AIS equipped commercial vessels and relatively few recreational vessels) as well as ledges, buoys, rain squalls, and other floating objects we may unexpectedly encounter. The biggest danger of collision with another vessel or object occurs when approaching the shore, and that's also when you are likely to encounter a plethora of "local" fishing or recreational boats that do not have AIS transponders and also may not be very adept at or focused on collision avoidance themselves.

Here in Maine, there are many hundreds of lobstermen who don't have AIS, and though their radar is turned on, they are focused on finding and hauling (while maneuvering in circles) their next string of lobster traps and rarely even glance at their radar screen until it's time to head to a different area. Legally, you may be the stand on vessel (though with constantly changing geometry due to the nature of the way lobstermen maneuver that may be difficult to discern), but you better avoid them anyway because chances are they aren't even aware of you. I realize that there aren't lobsterboats everywhere, but there are similar, unpredictable, hazards. For those who have done extensive cruising without radar aboard or who have chosen to not use it, all I can say is that you might be amazed by the close calls you've had if you'd bothered to have been "looking."

Also, unfortunately the "Mark One eyeball" doesn't work very well in thick fog or moonless/cloudy nights, or strong winds blowing salt spray that restrict visibility and make your eyes water or coat your goggles with salty streaks, and radar will keep "looking" even in nasty cold weather where even the most larger than life and nearly superhuman watchkeepers amongst us would be tempted to duck inside rather than keep a diligent visual lookout with their head outside the rain/salt streaked dodger windows, and since at least one of those conditions exist at some point during almost every offshore passage as well as while coastal cruising or approaching shore, I think anyone who thinks their eyeballs are a substitute for radar during conditions of restricted visibility are depending on others avoiding them, pure luck, or are trying VERY hard to fool themselves that their eyeballs are actually of the Mark Two type(the ones with the infrared and laser rangefinding options), but not being a licensed headshrinker, I wouldn't even dare speculate as to why.

Besides keeping us safe by avoiding all types of obstructions, radar is useful for backing up our navigation and making us aware of the rare occasion when things aren't just as chartplotter or chart is depicts.

Chances are that while offshore, the vast majority of "obstructions" will have an AIS transponder, but who hasn't been surprised by seeing something offshore that you never would have dreamt that you'd see, such as a floating shack or dock that's come loose in a storm, or a smaller boat that doesn't have a transponder and has no clue that you're there? Putting all your eggs in the AIS basket depends on all possible obstructions you might encounter having a transponder and that is a very long way from reality. I think AIS is great and hope its use becomes even more widespread, but there will always be things out there that only radar will make you aware of when visual conditions are less than great. I wouldn't have an ocean going vessel without it! While offshore, it's a rule on my boat that between sunset and sunrise, and during other times of restricted visibility, the watchkeeper WILL keep the radar in either standby or on, and at least every 15 minutes WILL make a long range and a short range scan around us to see what's out there. Often it's something that is also displayed on AIS but sometimes radar shows "something" is out there but the AIS doesn't show that and I'd hate to be blissfully unaware of all those "somethings" I've seen show up only on radar, and often when I least expected it.

Here, here. Hear, hear

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Here, here.

I believe you meant "hear hear"

[JPA Cate]

^^^^^^
Or maybe, Here! Hear?

Easy, ever'body.


Cheers,

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

^^^^^^
Or maybe, Here! Hear?

Easy, ever'body.


Cheers,

naah...

Hear, hear is an expression used as a short, repeated form of hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made by a speaker. ... The phrase hear him, hear him! was used in Parliament from late in the 17th century, and was reduced to hear! or hear, hear! by the late 18th century.

DH likes to be akarut....

[weavis]

an' I still luvs RADAR..

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by weavis

naah...

Hear, hear is an expression used as a short, repeated form of hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made by a speaker. ... The phrase hear him, hear him! was used in Parliament from late in the 17th century, and was reduced to hear! or hear, hear! by the late 18th century.

DH likes to be akarut....

Thanks for the history lessen.

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Here in Maine, there are many hundreds of lobstermen who don't have AIS, and though their radar is turned on, they are focused on finding and hauling (while maneuvering in circles) their next string of lobster traps and rarely even glance at their radar screen until it's time to head to a different area. Legally, you may be the stand on vessel (though with constantly changing geometry due to the nature of the way lobstermen maneuver that may be difficult to discern), but you better avoid them anyway because chances are they aren't even aware of you.

Lobster boats are the stand on vessels when they're working traps, since they are engaged in fishing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by weavis

I believe you meant "hear hear"

You are right - thanks for the correction.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[btrayfors]

jtsailjt said it perfectly, and I agree 100% with his comments. There's simply no substitute for radar and AIS is WAY WAY down the list of essential navigational gear.

However, here's a real life exception to that, taken from the very waters jtsailjt sails, i.e., Penobscot Bay.

This summer I was singlehanding my 42' sloop, Born Free, from Pulpit Harbor on Northhaven island to Rockland, ME. Crossing Penobscot Bay under sail, a fog set upon me and grew deeper until visibility was only 50-100 yards. The wind was still good, so I sailed on, and though fitted with a very good Furuno radar, I was too lazy to go below and turn it on. It was a lovely morning and I was enjoyiing the sail thru the fog.




After about 30 minutes of this, I saw a target on the AIS (mine is on 24/7)....it was the sailing ship Victory Chimes, a three-masted schooner coming at me thru the fog. I called him on VHF, he said he saw me OK, and a couple of minutes later, voila....



So, sometimes, AIS can be helpful :-)

Bill

[crabcake]

"The time for taking all measures for a ship's safety is while still able to do so. Nothing is more dangerous than for a seaman to be grudging in taking precautions lest they turn out to have been unnecessary. Safety at sea for a thousand years has depended on exactly the opposite philosophy." – U.S. Navy FleetAdmiral Chester W. Nimitz (read about Admiral Nimitz here)

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

jtsailjt said it perfectly, and I agree 100% with his comments. There's simply no substitute for radar and AIS is WAY WAY down the list of essential navigational gear.

However, here's a real life exception to that, taken from the very waters jtsailjt sails, i.e., Penobscot Bay.

This summer I was singlehanding my 42' sloop, Born Free, from Pulpit Harbor on Northhaven island to Rockland, ME. Crossing Penobscot Bay under sail, a fog set upon me and grew deeper until visibility was only 50-100 yards. The wind was still good, so I sailed on, and though fitted with a very good Furuno radar, I was too lazy to go below and turn it on. It was a lovely morning and I was enjoyiing the sail thru the fog.

Attachment 132917


After about 30 minutes of this, I saw a target on the AIS (mine is on 24/7)....it was the sailing ship Victory Chimes, a three-masted schooner coming at me thru the fog. I called him on VHF, he said he saw me OK, and a couple of minutes later, voila....

Attachment 132918

So, sometimes, AIS can be helpful :-)

Bill

Yes! AIS is wonderful! Too bad 90+% of the vessels on the water don't have an AIS Transceiver!

If you had found the ambition to power up your radar, you would have had the all the same information to avoid a collision (bearing, speed, CPA) sans the boat name and MMSI. (Assuming your Furuno has ARPA)

[Snowpetrel]

^^ dont trust any small boat marpa to be remotely accurate though it can give a reasonable estimate if used with care. At least in any sort of seaway the stabilisation is just not good enough. Even on big ships the accuracy is often only good to about 0.5' depending on a lot of factors.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Ziggy

Lobster boats are the stand on vessels when they're working traps, since they are engaged in fishing.

That's debatable.

"The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability. "

So the question of if and/or when a lobsterman is "engaged in fishing" is not so clear cut as a vessel pulling nets etc.

Also:

"A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway "

"A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any vessel following a traffic lane. "

And finally:

If they are "constantly changing geometry due to the nature of the way lobstermen maneuver", then they are not "keeping their course and speed" as required of a "stand on vessel".