Chartplotter with 4G Radar - B&G or Simrad

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

Sailjumanji, you are doing almost the exact same electronics change as myself. You do need the Seatalk to Seatalk NG to get the data to/from the ST60's.

How far along are you on the install? Were you able to get all of the wind, rudder angle, compass data from the ST system onto Zeus?

Dockhead, where does the Tide info come from on Sailsteer? Is that using the paddlewheel boat speed?

[CAELESTIS]

I have not started yet.

The tide information comes from data on the cartography.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

I have not started yet.

Please hurry up so you can tell me what not to do!

A couple of things I read say the only data that the AP computer is going to provide is heading. I thought Sailsteer was looking for a rudder angle, but that apparently is not going to be available. Maybe it needed it for integrating the AP. I don't plan to use Zeus to do anything regarding the AP though.

A couple of my buddies recommended the Vesper as well. Funny that they recommend changing out the VHF antenna to one that looks similar, but is tuned to AIS frequency better. The Vesper GPS is a 5 Hz unit though, so it may not be as accurate as the B&G unit.

[sailjumanji]

So I just read in the SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkng converter installation instructions that I should not daisy chain the S1 autopilot to the other SeaTalk instruments that run to the converter. Said that it should be hooked directly to the chartplotter thru the NMEA183 connection. Anyone have experience with this? Wonder why?

If this is the case, wonder if I can set the heading info to go from the AP to the Zeus, and the waypoint and apparent wind into to feed from Zeus to AP. I have been known to use the AP in apparent wind mode, and also to have it steer to a waypoint on long trips. I really don't want to lose that function.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...MZe_h3STR25ymw

[sailjumanji]

oops, I just found this update that says they fixed the issue with a software update, and now the AP can be on the same system as other SeaTalk1 instruments. Software Update: SeaTalk One - SeaTalkng Converter

When you start answering your own posts, it is time to go to bed!

[sailjumanji]

One final thing. I posted this on the charts site, but it is very specific to B&G, so I will put it here. This question is probably for the US-based guys (and gals). I am getting ready to buy a B&G Zeus2 chartplotter. There are two models/choices as differentiated by the chart package included:

1) "Insight" chart
2) C-Map Max-N BDS Americas

The Insight bundle is about $200 cheaper. I know I need to buy C-Map Explorer Bahamas charts which are supposed to be best for Bahamas. What I am wondering is which of the two base choices (above) are best. I can find info on the BDS Americas. Since it covers North, Central and South America, it is pretty low resolution. What I cannot identify is whether the Insight is Insight Pro, Insight East HD or Insight West HD - or a choice.

If anyone has the Insight version, could you look it up at startup or whatever? Too see what version.

Also, if you have either - especially in Florida or Gulf Coast - do you find them ok for use? Enough detail? Normally I would just buy the HD charts for the region. More detail.

THANKS

[sailjumanji]

Spent some time at West Marine store with an electronics rep who has done several installs of B&G equipment, but even more Simrad (essentially same unit, except no Sailsteer). They are having a Zeus2 9 and 4G radar sent from warehouse to store, and next Thursday I am going to buy it when West has their triple points electronics sale (for Advantage Gold members), which will net me back coupons for 12% of what I spend, to be used on further purchases. Anyway, his experience:

1, Raymarine SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkng converter works good in some instances, and some instances it does not covert all of the data it says it should. So I may not get all of the SeaTalk data.

I still need to determine exactly what Sailsteer uses. Hopefully it can get the wind angle data, and the boat speed from paddlewheel. It is going to be a pisser if after all of this, I cant get the data it needs to play with!

2. The built in GPS antenna is not going to work under a hardtop. Also, said that the S1 pilot 5Hz compass is not going to be sufficient for radar overlay. What I likely will see is a misalignment of the radar vs the land, and it is going to be confusing. He recommended a Lowrance Point 1 Baha which is a GPS combined with compass. It has too short of a cable for me, and I think I will just buy the ZG100 external gps with radar, and hope it works well enough. I think it is a 10Hz compass vs a 5 Hz for the S1.

3. 4G radar much better in the 4-6 mile range, but most of his experience has been on powerboats with the radar on a pole. Getting it higher would get the distance seen further. Mine is going to be about 40% up the mast. Seeing thunderstorms out 20 nm though might be tougher. I don't know what others experience is?

Probably about it for now.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Spent some time at West Marine store with an electronics rep who has done several installs of B&G equipment, but even more Simrad (essentially same unit, except no Sailsteer). They are having a Zeus2 9 and 4G radar sent from warehouse to store, and next Thursday I am going to buy it when West has their triple points electronics sale (for Advantage Gold members), which will net me back coupons for 12% of what I spend, to be used on further purchases. Anyway, his experience:

1, Raymarine SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkng converter works good in some instances, and some instances it does not covert all of the data it says it should. So I may not get all of the SeaTalk data.

I still need to determine exactly what Sailsteer uses. Hopefully it can get the wind angle data, and the boat speed from paddlewheel. It is going to be a pisser if after all of this, I cant get the data it needs to play with!

2. The built in GPS antenna is not going to work under a hardtop. Also, said that the S1 pilot 5Hz compass is not going to be sufficient for radar overlay. What I likely will see is a misalignment of the radar vs the land, and it is going to be confusing. He recommended a Lowrance Point 1 Baha which is a GPS combined with compass. It has too short of a cable for me, and I think I will just buy the ZG100 external gps with radar, and hope it works well enough. I think it is a 10Hz compass vs a 5 Hz for the S1.

3. 4G radar much better in the 4-6 mile range, but most of his experience has been on powerboats with the radar on a pole. Getting it higher would get the distance seen further. Mine is going to be about 40% up the mast. Seeing thunderstorms out 20 nm though might be tougher. I don't know what others experience is?

Probably about it for now.

Good luck!

My experience is that the range of my 4G radar is similar to my old 4kW Raymarine Pathfinder. My dome is 10 meters above the waterline near the first spreader, and I see ships out to 15 or 20 miles reliably. The radar has far less definition at longer ranges, but not less than the pulse radar. It does not seem to pick up rain as well, but intense rain bands are visible out to 20 miles or more. Hope that helps.

After two years of using the 4G radar, the best thing about it, I have to say, is the very good target discrimination which makes the guard zones work really well. Which is incredibly useful. I guess that's a function of signal processing.

As to GPS -- the ZG100/GS25 is so good and so cheap that you would want it in any case -- the GPS built into the Zeus is not very good (I used it for more than a year, so know whereof I speak). My GS25 is mounted under fiberglass, under the boom, and near the mast, and despite all the risk of multipath etc. from that works perfectly. I have 1.8 meters estimated position error from it as I write this. This unit is so good -- receives GLONASS, differential correction everywhere including Europe, will receive Galileo, so fast and accurate -- I would think there would hardly be anyone who could resist its charms for only $200.

But the compass in the ZG100/GS25 is specifically not intended for autopilot, MARPA, or radar overlay, and you will likely be disappointed. It's a simple unstabilized fluxgate. You might want to invest in something better, although of course you could always do that later, after you try out the built-in one.


Concerning SailSteer -- it wants rudder angle just to display rudder angle, which is super useful to see at a glance how much weather helm you're carrying it. If you don't have that data, other functions won't be affected. It wants STW so that it can calculate tide set and drift, but this data must be very accurate for this to work. It's marginally useful with my Airmar CS4500 ultrasonic log; don't know whether it will work usefully with a regular paddlewheel. It needs STW and heading for True Wind, so you really want that data on the network. Otherwise, it just needs wind data.

Good luck.

[sailjumanji]

STW?

Yeah, I am probably going to find out what SeaTalk1 data is available after I have hooked everything up. Have not been able to find any info on what data comes from wind instrument.

ZG100 and GS25 - and the Lowrance Point 1 - all say that they work for radar/chart overlay, but no suitable for MARPA or autopilot. The only difference in the three seems to be how long the cable is or whether it comes with a T-connector for NMEA2000. Funny that my S1 autopilot is using a 5Hz compass and no gyro, and has always worked fine. But the compasses above are not recommended for this. Is that because a gyro on my 20-ft wide cat is not as important as on a heeling monohull?

I am going to buy the GS25. Hopefully won't need the Airmar H2183, but as you said, that can be added later.

[ka4wja]

sailjumanji, et al,
Some important info for you all...
(I originally thought I didn't have anything to contribute to this discussion, but I think this may help)

At the end of 2006, I installed a whole new suite of electronics, including Raymarine S3G autopilot and Raymarine "Fast Heading Sensor", E-120 and E-80 MFD's and 24"/4KW radar scanner (among everything else)....and while everything worked fine, I was not happy with MARPA when in a heavy sea way....
Raymarine said (multiple times) that was how it was supposed to work....but, I didn't accept that...

Good news....
After reading everything...I found out that while the "fast heading sensor" was doing its job giving the S3G good fast heading info, and the "G" part of the S3G was also working fine....the unfortunate fact was that the "fast heading" info was NOT being output from the S3G via its SeaTalk line (it was apparently not designed to do this), but rather this "fast heading" data was only available as an output via NMEA 0183...
[and, apparently this lack of fast heading data from the autopilot corepaks via SeaTalk, has been a peculiarity of SeaTalk for 15+ years....and all some have had to do to improve things is to hook-up a NMEA 0183 connection...]

Once I connected a NMEA 0183 line from the S3G's NMEA 0183 output (which had been unused) to the MFD's, Eureka!
MARPA now worked GREAT!!!

While I am NOT a SeaTalk nor NMEA expert....after I made this change, I notified Raymarine and they said "yes, that's the way it is supposed to work" (I could've strangled them!)....

And, over the years it has become known that SeaTalk (SeaTalk1) doesn't provide all the NMEA data that some other systems / devices may need....
So, before you add SeaTalk to SeaTalkNG converters, etc. or decide on what systems/devices to install...be aware that you may be able to get better results from MARPA (and radar-overlay) by outputting your heading data via NMEA rather than starting with SeaTalk...



Now, I do NOT know if the 5hz output of the S1 would be good enough....but, the 10hz (or faster) output from my S3G (via NMEA) works great...
So, you may wish to have a look at this possible solution, before spending the $$ and time on a mux / converter, etc...

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

I think you are good. Here is what the commissioning guide says about the smart pilots. "S2 & S3 have 10 Hz, 0.1 deg resolution, suitable for use with MARPA function or radar equipment." If you have the G (gyro) in addition, I would suspect you are golden.

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

So I just read in the SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkng converter installation instructions that I should not daisy chain the S1 autopilot to the other SeaTalk instruments that run to the converter. Said that it should be hooked directly to the chartplotter thru the NMEA183 connection. Anyone have experience with this? Wonder why?

If this is the case, wonder if I can set the heading info to go from the AP to the Zeus, and the waypoint and apparent wind into to feed from Zeus to AP. I have been known to use the AP in apparent wind mode, and also to have it steer to a waypoint on long trips. I really don't want to lose that function.

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

back to the questions. I am going to buy the Zeus2 9 and the 4G radar. Currently have an ST60 speed/depth, an ST60 wind, and a Raymarine series 6000 controller and an S1 autopilot. The AP does not have a gyro. All of these are linked together with Seatalk 1 cables. The WM rep says the easiest way to get data from them is a Seatalk 1 to Seatalk ng converter kit. As the three units are daisy-chained together, one cable link at the end should make all of the system data available. And then the converter kit just links to an NMEA2000 backbone via another cable. Does that sound viable? If so, that would get wind data, rudder angle, paddle wheel speed (is this really needed, because most times we have that pulled so as not to deal with marine growth), heading, apparent wind, etc - all into a NMEA 2000 system
Am thinking I might go with the ZG100 external GPS antenna with compass, and see how well that might work for heading info instead of the S1 compass. The S1 is 5Hz and MARPA and radar overlay wants 10 Hz - from what I have read.

As for AIS and VHF radios....
YES....Please buy a new VHF-DSC-FM radio!!!
And yes, get a Class B AIS Transponder...not just a receiver...
See details in your quote, in red...

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Ok, what about AIS. The WM rep - who had done a few trips - felt strongly about transceiver and not just receiver.
Yes, get a Class B AIS Transponder...not just a receiver..

I didn't realize until then that the AIS needs its own GPS.
If the NMEA2000 network has GPS, then does the AIS need dedicated GPS/separate antenna?
Yes, the intn'l AIS rules/regs require AIS transponders to have their OWN GPS receiver built-in...and, unlike almost every other "GPS Antenna" we use, the AIS GPS antennas are JUST ANTENNAS that receive the signals and the GPS receiver is built-into the AIS transponder....


Not a huge deal to put another one on the arch, but not if it is just redundant. He recommended a Em-Trak B100 AIS Class B transceiver ($580) and a Em-Trak S100 AIS antenna splitter ($260). Cheaper than others, and he had good experience with customers. Reviews are so-so. Looks like it would hook up to the NMEA2000.
Emtrak makes a good AIS transponder, but I actually recommend Vesper....
https://em-trak.com/

Marine AIS | Collision Warning System | Vesper Marine
WatchMate 850 AIS Transponder | Vesper Marine
WatchMate Vision AIS Transponder | Vesper Marine
XB-8000 AIS Transponder | Vesper Marine

The Vesper Watchmate 850 is a super unit, and is far and above the rest of the market!! (as are all of Vesper's products!!)

And, certainly the Vesper SP-160 antenna relay/splitter is the only one that I recommend!!
Antenna Splitter for Class B AIS Transponders



Ok, that said, my VHF is so old that is doesn't even have DSC. So probably time to replace it.
YES....Please buy a new VHF-DSC-FM radio!!!
This is a absolute must!!!
If you buy/install nothing else, please do this...

VHF-DSC has been with us for a LONG time, originally starting in 1992 and required for all commercial vessels by Jan 1999...so, anyone with a non-DSC radio, please upgrade!!
How many of you have the same computer, phone, TV set, etc. for more than 5 years, let alone 20+ years???


Ideally what I would like is to see the AIS on the Zeus, and have an easy way to call ship on the VHF. thought I read something that basically dials them up after making a selection? Is that doable? AIS is something that I would probably use more than radar, as we do some motoring in ICW and shipping lanes, and would be nice to call ships by name instead of "eastbound tow at mile x this is westbound catamaran..." Got any recommendations? I like Icom, but the networking with Zeus and AIS is probably most important.
I cannot speak for the Zeus, but Vesper AIS units work well and interface to the Icom M-506 fine....
IC-M506 VHF Marine Transceiver - Features - Icom America


And, while I really like the just discontinued M-604 (and its predecessor the M-602)...
IC-M604 VHF Marine Transceiver - Features - Icom America
...and its actual keypad, etc. the M-506 is a GREAT unit....and one version of the M-506 also includes a built-in AIS receiver!!
Currently about $650, with the AIS rec, or about $500-550 without....pricey, but worth it!!
IC-M506 VHF Marine Transceiver - Features - Icom America

I originally thought I didn't have anything to contribute to this discussion, but I do hope this has helped...

Fair winds...

John

[CAELESTIS]

Thanks John . . .now for more questions . .

I just ordered the Zeus2, 4G, and s/w/d Triton. I also have a Vesper 850. My auto pilot is a Raymarine S3G. I also have 2 Raymarine max view repeaters on the mast. Where would my Icom 802 and 504 get their GPS info?

Should I connect the autopilot directly to the Zeus2? Hook the max view to a Seatalk to Seatalk NG converter, and the Vesper to an Arctinsense (sp?) box? Where would my Icom 802 and 504 get their GPS info?

Skip the Arimar H2183? Skip the RC42?

[dsteinfeld]

So I'm also considering the B&G Zeus2 (9"), and with all the discussion of AIS, I'm wondering if I should stick with the Simrad AIS transceiver (since buying before the March rebate ends nets me a free WiFi gofree), or go with my original plan of the Vesper XB8000. The additional features of the Vesper (plus its reputation) make it very attractive.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

. . .
Dockhead, where does the Tide info come from on Sailsteer? Is that using the paddlewheel boat speed?

Yes -- tide set and drift is calculated in SailSteer from COG/SOG vs STW/HDG. STW comes from your paddlewheel log. NOT from chart data.

What about leeway? It seems to me that leeway is lumped in there, spoiling that data. Therefore, I have never trusted it. It would be useful to hear from anyone who thinks it works for them, or knows more than this.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dsteinfeld

So I'm also considering the B&G Zeus2 (9"), and with all the discussion of AIS, I'm wondering if I should stick with the Simrad AIS transceiver (since buying before the March rebate ends nets me a free WiFi gofree), or go with my original plan of the Vesper XB8000. The additional features of the Vesper (plus its reputation) make it very attractive.

As far as I know, the Zeus works fine with all commercial AIS transponders, so go with the Vesper if that's what you like.

I use my first generation Zeus non-touch and second generation Zeus Touch with a Si-Tex black box transponder with no problems.

[ka4wja]

Caelestis,
I cannot speak about the Zeus and other B&G/Simrad stuff...ask Dockhead about all of that...
But, as for the Raymarine, Vesper, and Icom gear...that I can help with...

While I am a firm proponent of separate / dedicated GPS receivers for DSC radios (and of course all AIS transponders are required to have their own dedicated, built-in GPS receivers), I understand the temptation to use your existing GPS data and send it to the DSC Radios...

My opinion / recommendations (in descending order):
a) Install/use a separate, dedicated GPS receiver (such as a Garmin GPS 76, 78, etc.) for your position data, for your DSC radios...
(it's cheap, easy, NMEA 0183 output, doesn't require another "GPS antenna" topside / on the rail....and allows you to always have position data to your DSC radios, should other devices / systems on-board fail or be non-functional...)

b) Use your Vesper Watchmate 850 NMEA output to drive the DSC radios...BUT...
---You can use the MNEA 0183 4800 baud output to drive position data to the radios....green(+) and white(-)
---AND also send NMEA 0183 38400 baud "AIS data" to your new plotters...gray(+) and yellow(-)
(while this arrangement isn't quite as "redundant" as "a" above, it does allows you to run just the Vesper 850 and Icom M-504, both 24/7, and not use much energy....and still doesn't require any Raymarine autopilot, nor B&G equipment to be on and functioning...)

c) You could further complicate things by: either trying to take NMEA data out of the S3G (which would work, assuming your S3G is being fed GPS data???)...or taking NMEA data from the B&G gear....or you could install/use a NMEA mux, etc. etc....

Understand that ALL of the above options will work....
Option "b" is the least expensive and least obtrusive....with option "a" being only slightly more "robust"....
So, I recommend either "b" or "a"....(but, I do not recommend any of the options in "c", as these would just further complicate things, cost $$, and give you more possible points of failure...)

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

I just ordered the Zeus2, 4G, and s/w/d Triton. I also have a Vesper 850. My auto pilot is a Raymarine S3G. I also have 2 Raymarine max view repeaters on the mast. Where would my Icom 802 and 504 get their GPS info?

I hope this helps...





Now as for how-to hook-up your new B&G stuff, as I wrote above I don't have experience with them....but Dockhead does, so I'll defer to him on this....
But, I assume you had Raymarine s/w/d??? On a SeaTalk bus???
And, had the ST-60 Maxiview's showing this data, along with the S3G autopilot data??
If this is the case, then you may not be able to use the Maxiviews with the new B&G Tritons??
Again, not sure here....and especially not sure as I don't know what you had previously and how that was wired/connected, and how/what you wish the Maxiviews to show now...
But, in a nutshell, you will probably need a SeaTalk to SeaTalkNG converter to allow to fully use the Maxiviews and also possibly send autopilot data (if desired) to the B&G devices...

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

Should I connect the autopilot directly to the Zeus2? Hook the max view to a Seatalk to Seatalk NG converter, and the Vesper to an Arctinsense (sp?) box? Where would my Icom 802 and 504 get their GPS info?

Skip the Arimar H2183? Skip the RC42?

The GOOD news is that the Vesper and Icom stuff is all easy-peasy, plug-'n-play!!!


I hope this helps...

Fair winds...

John