Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Montanan, perhaps you should review your navigation markers! An isolated hazard mark is not yellow, but black over red bands with two black balls as a topmark. This is an international convention.

Yellow buoys, often with a "X" as topmark, are special purpose buoys,marking various things, such as places where two channels veer off from a single one.

Yacht racing courses are often marked with inflatable buoys, and they too are often yellow... and for sure those are not marking hazards (other than congestion of racing yachts!). No wonder some yachts steer towards them!

Jim

Hi Jim,thanks for the clarification, I haven't seen many yellow markers.
I guess there are different types of yellow special marks with various meanings.

From the schoolofsailing website:

Yellow buoys. Yellow represents caution on these buoys. Usually meaning to stay away from them. They are used to indicate pipes, dredge lines, traffic schemes, an isolated danger. They do not usually indicate which side to leave them on. Reading the chart may tell you their significance if they are marking a permanent hazard such as a shoal area. Yellow buoys, if lighted, will flash a yellow light. The rule for yellow buoys: Stay away. Special note on the meaning of the color yellow: While yellow means caution on these buoys yellow is also the designated color for identifying Intracoastal aids to navigation. As we will see later, all buoys and other aids on the Intracoastal Waterway will have at least some yellow on them.

From Boatus:

Special Marks
Special marks have no lateral significance (meaning they don't tell you which side of the channel or river you may be on). These marks are used to mark a special feature or area. These include area limits for anchorages, fishing grounds, or dredging/spoil areas. These buoys may be lighted, and if they are it will be a fixed or flashing yellow light. Shape is optional, but usually follows the shape of the navigation buoys that it is positioned near.

The image below is from the USCG Aids to Navigation System brochure.

They all seem to mean caution of some sort. Not sure how you determine what the specific issue is.

[Montanan]

Perfect example of what can happen when your not watching where you are going.

Dang red cans come out of nowhere when you least expect them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy3wJrGnNco

[Montanan]

How not to follow Rule 6.

52-foot MTI catamaran, traveling 148 miles per hour [210 feet per second], enters dense fog [visibility restricted to 50 - 100] runs into green channel marker buoy. And lives to tell about it. Great on board video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=pqeoKlm30ys

RULE 6
Safe Speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can
take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a
distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those
taken into account:
(a) By all vessels:
(i) the state of visibility;
(ii) the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any
other vessels;
(iii) the maneuverability of the vessel with special reference to stopping
distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
(iv) at night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights
or from back scatter of her own lights;
(v) the state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational
hazards;
(vi) the draft in relation to the available depth of water.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Bill_Giles

Yellow buoys do not mark where a channel splits, there is a special buoy or mark with green and red stripes. See here:

See attached chartlet... a small region in the Broadwater portion of Moreton Bay, Australia. There are three instances of a yellow X marking division of channels in this one small chart.

See also second chartlet, from Port Stephens, NSW Australia, showing a typical isolated hazard with its attendant buoy.

Both of these usages are from the IALA standards, ie, internationally agreed aids to navigation.

Jim

[RenegadeBI]

OK, my two cent's worth. Courtesy. I can't tell you how many times I've given way to a sailboat under sail approaching on my port side only to see the exhaust from their running engine as I pass her stern, often when I'm trolling lines (sport-fishing). No signal, no radio response, I respond as the regs require - avoid collision. Then let's talk about those damn rowers. They only draw inches of water but insist on practicing in the middle of the channel, often pausing in a huddle blocking everyone. And their chase boats - harbor speed limits - hah!
One other consideration many are apparently unaware of is part of "safe speed". If your wake causes damage or injury you are liable.
Keeping it friendly.

[CharlesEdward]

There are two points I wanted to make as taught by Sea School in Charleston, SC. A sport fishing boat becomes a fishing boat once a fish is on the line. For instance, a recreation motor craft with a marlin on the line has less maneuverability than a sail boat and with a fish on the line the power boat becomes a fishing vessel thus the stand on vessel with the sailboat the give way vessel.
Second, although it will seldom be seen, a sailboat traveling at 8 knots when a recreation cabin cruiser is traveling at 7 knots could see a sailboat overtaking a power boat. In this case the power boat is the stand on vessel.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by CharlesEdward

There are two points I wanted to make as taught by Sea School in Charleston, SC. A sport fishing boat becomes a fishing boat once a fish is on the line. For instance, a recreation motor craft with a marlin on the line has less maneuverability than a sail boat and with a fish on the line the power boat becomes a fishing vessel thus the stand on vessel with the sailboat the give way vessel.
Second, although it will seldom be seen, a sailboat traveling at 8 knots when a recreation cabin cruiser is traveling at 7 knots could see a sailboat overtaking a power boat. In this case the power boat is the stand on vessel.

Thank you for your post.

I will start with the easy one, Overtaken Vessel.
You are correct, any vessel being overtaken by any vessel is the stand on vessel.
So a sailboat overtaking a powerboat the power boat is the stand on vessel.

Now for the fishing boat example that you presented.
Sorry but you were given some wrong information.
Nowhere in the Rules does if say anything about you becoming a fishing boat once a fish is on the line, even a large fish.
The definition for fishing boat is all about the equipment you are using.

Some have pointed out it would be a nice thing to give sport fishing boats some room.
I completely agree it would be nice, but it in not in the Rules.

Rule 3
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

See attached chartlet... a small region in the Broadwater portion of Moreton Bay, Australia. There are three instances of a yellow X marking division of channels in this one small chart.

See also second chartlet, from Port Stephens, NSW Australia, showing a typical isolated hazard with its attendant buoy.

Both of these usages are from the IALA standards, ie, internationally agreed aids to navigation.

Jim

Well here we go with a thread drift from COLREGs and fishing to navigation aids.

IALA has been very helpful reducing from 30 distinct systems to just two, Region A and B. Not dissimilar to the distinctions in the two primary Hertz 50/60 for AC and for driving, wherein there being the rightside and the wrongside.

5. SPECIAL MARK:

Special marks are used to denote mariners’ areas with special features. They do not play any major role in facilitating mariners in safe navigation. They only point out areas of certain interests to mariners. The nature of such areas can be found by consulting the charts or Sailing Directions. Special marks may indicate spoil grounds, military exercise areas, recreational zones, boundaries of anchorage areas, cables and pipelines, Dead ends, mooring areas, protected areas, marine farms or aquaculture, oil wells, ODAS(Ocean Data Acquisition System) which gather information about wind speed, pressure, salinity and temperature. These marks can easily be demarcated from other buoys by their yellow colour and topmark which is a cross.

SPECIAL MARK
COLOUR YELLOW
BUOY SHAPE OPTIONAL BUT MUST NOT CONFLICT WITH THAT USED FOR A LATERAL OR SAFE WATERMARK
TOPMARK SINGLE YELLOW CROSS – ‘X’ SHAPED
LIGHT COLOUR YELLOW
LIGHT RYTHM ANY RHYTHM NOT USED FOR WHITE LIGHT

I recall the article from Cruising World [a snipet below] of the story of a US sailor being confused when entering French Polynesia and the entry markers being NOT Red Right Return. https://www.cruisingworld.com/red-right-returning

"But whether they are green to port and red to starboard or the opposite depends entirely upon what region of the world you are navigating. The IALA established two regions: Region A and Region B.

Region A consists of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Africa and most of Asia. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are red and marks to starboard are green.

Region B consists of North America, Central America and South America, plus the Philippines, Japan and Korea. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are green and marks to starboard are red (red, right, return!).

Now that we’re spending much of our time cruising in Region A countries, where my mnemonic is worthless, I’m keeping in mind something else the French cruiser said to me that day in the Marquesas: [B]“You know why I know you Americans have it backward? Port wine is red.”[/B] Yes, it is."

All the best.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Thank you for your post.

I will start with the easy one, Overtaken Vessel.
You are correct, any vessel being overtaken by any vessel is the stand on vessel.
So a sailboat overtaking a powerboat the power boat is the stand on vessel.

Now for the fishing boat example that you presented.
Sorry but you were given some wrong information.
Nowhere in the Rules does if say anything about you becoming a fishing boat once a fish is on the line, even a large fish.
The definition for fishing boat is all about the equipment you are using.

Some have pointed out it would be a nice thing to give sport fishing boats some room.
I completely agree it would be nice, but it in not in the Rules.

Rule 3
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

Indeed, the distinction is rather easy to discern, when a fish in on, the fish's maneuverability is restricted but the fisherperson or vessel from which the fishperson is fishing is not restricted in maneuverability. Cut line and off the boat goes. That being said, it is courteous to aid in allowing the fish to be caught and to maneuver safely to allow the sport and according story to be realized.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by CharlesEdward

There are two points I wanted to make as taught by Sea School in Charleston, SC. A sport fishing boat becomes a fishing boat once a fish is on the line. For instance, a recreation motor craft with a marlin on the line has less maneuverability than a sail boat and with a fish on the line the power boat becomes a fishing vessel thus the stand on vessel with the sailboat the give way vessel.
. . . .

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, trolling boats don’t count as fishing vessels under the international rules.

Seems like you instructors were teaching the rules as they would like them to be interpreted and not as they are written.

If it were a rule the now fishing boat would be required to hoist a shape as soon as the fish struck and bring it back down as soon as landed or it escaped. Lights too. There is no provision for this so it’s an incorrect interpretation.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Adelie

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, trolling boats don’t count as fishing vessels under the international rules.

Seems like you instructors were teaching the rules as they would like them to be interpreted and not as they are written.

If it were a rule the now fishing boat would be required to hoist a shape as soon as the fish struck and bring it back down as soon as landed or it escaped. Lights too. There is no provision for this so it’s an incorrect interpretation.

I would bet that the Instructor did teach the Rules correctly.
But maybe there was a side discussion about what would be a nice thing to do on the water and CharlesEdward got it a little mixed up.

I teach the USCG 100Ton License course and we stay way from discussions about things not on the test.

It just causes some to get confused and fail the test.
You have to get a 90% of better to pass the Rules of the road.

[KP44]

Interesting to hear someone considers a sport-fishing boat to be "engaged in fishing" if the fisher has hooked a fish.
Whereas I totally agree to be courteous to sport fishers, kayaks, and even PWC; I cannot examine every sport boat to determine whether of not it has hooked a fish.
If I see someone has hooked a big marlin or is obviously snagged on the bottom, of course I will give her/him all the room I can.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I would bet that the Instructor did teach the Rules correctly.
But maybe there was a side discussion about what would be a nice thing to do on the water and CharlesEdward got it a little mixed up.

I teach the USCG 100Ton License course and we stay way from discussions about things not on the test.

It just causes some to get confused and fail the test.
You have to get a 90% of better to pass the Rules of the road.

CharlesEdward, I hope you did not take this post as insulting or rude.
I did not intend it to be.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Indeed, the distinction is rather easy to discern, when a fish in on, the fish's maneuverability is restricted but the fisherperson or vessel from which the fishperson is fishing is not restricted in maneuverability. Cut line and off the boat goes. That being said, it is courteous to aid in allowing the fish to be caught and to maneuver safely to allow the sport and according story to be realized.

Nicely explained



Indeed, sport fish just trolling lines is not a "fishing vessel" under the Rules, whether or not he's got a fish on the line. And besides that, no lights/shapes, no status.


It's an important distinction because you MIGHT have to stand on. It's very unlikely that a sport fish with a marlin on the line is going to fulfill his obligations under the Rules, but in case you fail to prevent a risk of collision from arising, and in case he does move to fulfill his obligations -- you also have a role to play, and that is standing on.





That being said, both courtesy, and good seamanship in the form of knowing what to expect from such a vessel, demand that we don't mess up their fishing by getting into a collision avoidance situation, if we can avoid it by taking early action. I would say in fact that it is very rude to interfere with such fishing activities -- some people LIVE for catching a big marlin -- steer a wide berth and let them have their fun.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I would bet that the Instructor did teach the Rules correctly.
But maybe there was a side discussion about what would be a nice thing to do on the water and CharlesEdward got it a little mixed up.

I teach the USCG 100Ton License course and we stay way from discussions about things not on the test.

It just causes some to get confused and fail the test.
You have to get a 90% of better to pass the Rules of the road.

And it is the 10% that is not known that can easily get one in trouble.

9 out of 10 times not colliding is not great statistics.