Brexit Means EU Citizenship Not as Useful

[DIJ]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

Eu all over Europe, UK only Great Brittan.

This thread has prob appropriately died the death and I guess most people know this but for completeness - UK is Great BRITAIN and Northern Ireland, and there are a few European countries that are not EU - Norway , Switzerland for instance.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Very funny but Her Maj? Wearing that hat? I don't think so, mate.

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I was about to say (regarding that hat) "don't drag us into your troubles", but then I remembered that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. (We have in the past very successfully dragged you lot into our troubles. Just so you know, there are people over here who do not forget & who do remember & continue to thank you for that.)

Well y'all similarly got embroiled into participating in a few spats of our more recent making, and which likewise is noted.

Okay, so perhaps the Queen [or the British] taking up wearing a Make America Great Britain Again hat is about as likely to becoming fashionable in the UK, as say, our POTUS wearing a tiara crown in the USA, eh?

Fair Warning: Once you see this image, it becomes hard to unsee it.

[Eventide]

Hey boatman 61, hope you are doing well.

What did you mean by this... unless Trump pisses off Napoleon..?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by DIJ

This thread has prob appropriately died the death and I guess most people know this but for completeness - UK is Great BRITAIN and Northern Ireland, and there are a few European countries that are not EU - Norway , Switzerland for instance.

There are 50 countries in Europe.. 27 of which are EU members in one form or another..

[zamber]

Originally Posted by Vortec

What a crap post!

As former French citizen and now Danish I find EU very useful.

Yours sincerely Pierre 🇫🇷 🇩🇰 🇫🇷 😁

I said "Not as Useful." In the English language "Not as Useful" does not mean not useful. It means it is useful, but to a lesser level. Without Britain EU citizenship is less useful than when Britain was in it.

I see you are from France. Perhaps you misunderstood my post due to language skills.

See below so you can understand.
Not as Useful: Pas aussi utile
Not useful: Pas utile

[boatman61]

As a Brit who sailed to France pre EU and since joining the EU I can assure you the French were, are and will continue to be a pain in the butt when they've a mind to..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I was about to say (regarding that hat) "don't drag us into your troubles", but then I remembered that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. (We have in the past very successfully dragged you lot into our troubles. Just so you know, there are people over here who do not forget & who do remember & continue to thank you for that.)

I don't know about us dragging the Yanks into our troubles.. more like the Japanese dragged them in..
Since then we've served as back up..

[Alita49DS]

Originally Posted by boatman61

As a Brit who sailed to France pre EU and since joining the EU I can assure you the French were, are and will continue to be a pain in the butt when they've a mind to..

To me that seems to be gratuitously offensive to France and the French.

I suspect, reading your contributions, that the French reacted in the same way as anyone of any nationality would have done on meeting a PIA.

For my part, having just spent 5 months in France, I am grateful to the French as my neighbours, I am grateful to the hospital system I was still able to use with my EHIC, and I feel massively depressed about the disastrous consequences of Brexit.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Alita49DS

To me that seems to be gratuitously offensive to France and the French.

I suspect, reading your contributions, that the French reacted in the same way as anyone of any nationality would have done on meeting a PIA.

For my part, having just spent 5 months in France, I am grateful to the French as my neighbours, I am grateful to the hospital system I was still able to use with my EHIC, and I feel massively depressed about the disastrous consequences of Brexit.

Well bully for you.. and the French will send the bill for your treatment onwards.. be grateful for that as well.
There's no such thing as a free meal.. someone has to pay for it.
But.. enjoy your depression.. I'll raise a glass to it..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Eventide

Hey boatman 61, hope you are doing well.

What did you mean by this... unless Trump pisses off Napoleon..?

Macron.. the New Emperor..

[Superseapig]

My husband is UK and very much wishes Brexit had not happened. But he’ll have me along anyway, with my Canadian and US passports, so I don’t guess I matters much after all. Either way, I’d say the English will suffer more than the EU will.

[Montanan]

FYI:
How Will ETIAS & BREXIT Affect UK Citizens?

Last update: July 17th, 2020

What is ETIAS?
ETIAS stands for European Travel Information and Authorization System. It is a completely electronic system which allows and keeps track of visitors from countries who do not need a visa to enter the Schengen Zone. In a way, it resembles the U.S Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA), which serves a similar purpose. The legal procedures to pass the ETIAS have started in 2016, and the system is expected to be in place by 2022.

The ETIAS will undergo a detailed security check of each applicant to determine whether they can be allowed to enter any Schengen Zone country. While citizens of countries who do not need a visa for travel purposes of up to 90 days in the EU do not need to go through a long process of applying for the visa, the ETIAS will make sure that these people are not a security threat. This travel authorization system will gather, keep track of, and update necessary information regarding visitors to determine whether it is safe for them to enter Schengen countries.

The ETIAS, besides being used for business and tourist purposes, will also allow people to visit the Schengen countries for medical and transit reasons. In addition, it will be mandatory for all countries who are Schengen visa-free.

The UK left the EU on January 31st, 2020 with a Withdrawal Agreement signed between the 2 parties on January 30th, 2020. An 11-month transition period began at midnight (CET) on the 31st, during which time trade and travel will continue as before.

UK citizens have enjoyed freedom of movement in Europe ever since the country joined the EU in 1973 (known then as the European Economic Area), but this is set to end after the conclusion of the Brexit transition period in 2020.

UK travellers will still be allowed to visit for short trips. However, this is on the condition that the same rights are granted to EU citizens reciprocally.

The EU Parliament’s UK Coordination Group recently drafted a resolution mandating a reciprocal visa-free agreement between the two countries once negotiations begin. This would permit travellers from both the EU and the UK to continue to enter for tourism, study, research, training and youth exchange.

Therefore it is likely that UK citizens will not need to apply for a Schengen Visa like many other nationalities. On February 1st, 2019, the European Council said:

"EU ambassadors today agreed that, following Brexit, UK citizens coming to the Schengen area for a short stay (90 days in any 180 days) should be granted visa-free travel."

ETIAS FOR UK CITIZENS TRAVELLING TO EUROPE AFTER BREXIT
However, from late 2022 onwards, visitors from countries with visa-free agreements with the EU (including the UK)will not be able to enter the Schengen Area with only their passports. The EU Commission has confirmed that UK citizens will need to pay a fee to visit Europe and will need to complete the online ETIAS application form before setting off.

ETIAS (European Travel Information and Authorisation System) is the name given to the new travel authorisation system required by British citizens and 60 other nationalities who can currently visit Europe visa-free.

ETIAS will be a visa waiver, meaning it will save travellers the hassle of obtaining conventional Schengen visas.

However, the implementation of the law is conditional. Members of the European Parliament also said this arrangement is subject to the UK granting EU nationals the same benefits. This means British travellers will only be visa-exempt as long as EU citizens can enter the UK without a visa.

The UK government has indicated that they intend to end freedom of movement in its current form after Brexit. Instead, it has been suggested by the UK Home Office that EU tourists will be able to travel to Britain and Northern Ireland with an eTA visa waiver in the near future. Until this is launched EU visitors can visit with passports as before.

While the UK is subject to its transition agreement with the EU, UK citizens travelling to Europe only need their passport to enter the other member countries. However, this will change after the Brexit transition period and, as of late 2022, ETIAS for British citizens will be a requirement.

The ETIAS visa waiver for Europe is being developed to improve the security and border control of Europe following concerns over terrorism and immigration. It will be similar to both the US (ESTA) and Canadian (eTA) models which have already been implemented.

When people apply for ETIAS, they will be screened using several European security databases including Interpol and Europol. Anyone who poses a security threat will be identified and prevented from reaching European soil.

TRAVELLING TO EUROPE FROM THE UK: HOW DOES IT WORK NOW?
At the moment, there is no need for a European visa waiver for British citizens. UK citizens can move freely and even work in other countries in the region. They only need to show their UK passport to be able to enter any EU country.

The free movement of people is one of the EU’s key principles. Once the UK is no longer a part of the union’s regulatory framework, British people will no longer be able to move around the continent as before.

ETIAS and Brexit are coincidental. ETIAS is not a consequence of Brexit. ETIAS is being introduced to improve the security of the region and the safety of its citizens. European Parliament representatives expressed the need for this system "By knowing who is coming to the EU before they even arrive at the border, we will be better able to stop those who may pose a threat to our citizens."

FURTHER REQUIREMENTS FOR UK CITIZENS TRAVELLING TO EUROPE
Details regarding the additional steps British nationals will need to take before heading to EU countries from 2021 have recently been released. Areas covered include passport validity, healthcare, driving, and taking pets abroad.

PASSPORT VALIDITY AND EXPIRY DATE REQUIREMENTS
On the date of travel, the UK passport must be:

Valid for at least 6 more months
Under 10 years old
Both these criteria must be met to be granted access to most EU countries, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Sweden.

BRITISH TRAVELLERS SHOULD TAKE OUT HEALTH INSURANCE AFTER BREXIT
After Brexit, UK citizens will no longer be covered by their European Health Insurance Card (EHIC), which means that any medical care required whilst in Europe may need to be paid for.

It is advised to take out health insurance for a trip to an EU country, especially individuals with pre-existing health conditions.

DRIVING IN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AFTER BREXIT
Extra documentation may be required to drive in Europe from 2021. An International Driving Permit (IDP) might be needed for some countries.

Motorists who take their own vehicle abroad may have to obtain a ‘green card’ and display a GB sticker.

TRAVELLING FROM THE UK TO EUROPE WITH PETS
The existing pet passport scheme will no longer be valid from 2021. A new process will be in place and will take 4 months to complete.

The new requirements include certain vaccinations and other checks, therefore, it is essential to begin the application well in advance of departure.

MOBILE ROAMING CHARGES FOR UK CITIZENS AFTER BREXIT
Guaranteed free mobile roaming for British citizens will end from January 1st, 2021. Travellers should check with their mobile operator to find out how much they may be charged to use their phone abroad.

Users will be notified once they have spent £45 (€49), after which point they will have to opt in to continue using the internet.

WHAT WILL ETIAS MEAN FOR THE UK?
After ETIAS comes into effect, British citizens visiting Europe will have to apply online for an ETIAS visa waiver before departing. The ETIAS visa waiver for UK citizens will be valid for 3-year periods and will allow unlimited entries into the region.

Although British people will need an ETIAS travel authorisation, they will not need to apply for a visa like many other countries. The 61 nationalities which are currently visa-exempt, including the UK, will remain visa-exempt but will need an ETIAS visa waiver.

The ETIAS application should not take longer than 10 minutes to complete and the process will be straightforward. Applicants will have to fill out a short form with personal information, details of their passport and answer some security questions. They will then have to pay a fee.

The confirmed travel authorisation should be available to the applicant within a few minutes and the whole process is likely to take a total of 15 minutes although this may vary as the final details have yet to be clarified.

OBTAINING AN ETIAS VISA WAIVER TO TRAVEL TO EUROPE WILL NOT BE OPTIONAL
ETIAS will be highly regulated. Airlines, ferry firms, train operators and coach companies will check that travellers have a valid ETIAS visa waiver before departure. All operators will be required to verify, “that travellers are in possession of a valid travel authorisation” Without a valid ETIAS, the visitor will not be able to board their transport to Europe.

If a British person travels to a Schengen country without an ETIAS visa waiver, they will not be allowed to enter the country. The EU said:

"At the request of the authorities competent to carry out the border checks, the carriers shall be obliged to return the third-country nationals to the third country from which they were transported or to the third country which issues the travel document."

Claude Moraes, rapporteur for the most recent proposal waiting for approval, said: "With the Brexit clock ticking, it is important to press ahead with this measure exempting British citizens from a visa requirement when travelling to the EU. This will go some way to clarifying EU visa policy after Brexit".

VISA-FREE DEAL CONDITIONAL ON UK RECIPROCITY
The European Commission said British citizens will not need visas to visit the European Union for short-term stays. However, this policy recommendation is dependent on the UK continuing to offer reciprocal visa-free access to European Union citizens.

On February 1, 2019, the European Council stated: "According to EU rules, visa exemption is granted on condition of reciprocity. The government of the United Kingdom has stated that it does not intend to require a visa from EU citizens travelling to the UK for short stays".

"In the event that the United Kingdom introduces a visa requirement for nationals of at least one member state in the future, the existing reciprocity mechanism would apply and the three institutions and the member states would commit to act without delay in applying the mechanism", they said.

This means that the current proposals could change depending on the UK’s position regarding the rights of EU nationals. The UK Government has said that freedom of movement will end at the conclusion of the transition period. However, it has mooted a visa-free travel scheme for EU tourists which should ensure travel continues very similarly to how it does today.

QUESTIONS OVER UK ACCESS TO EU DATA SYSTEMS IN 2021
The negotiations on the future relationship between Britain and the EU are still ongoing. However, a major sticking point appeared to arise between the two parties over access to European data systems.

BRITISH ACCESS TO THE SCHENGEN INFORMATION SYSTEM (SIS II)
A recently leaked document indicates that the UK wished to remain part of EU data sharing operations such as Europol’s Central Intelligence (EIS) database and Schengen Information System (SIS II). The UK currently has full access to the Europol data and only partial access to the Schengen systems (as it is not a member of the passport-free zone).

However, the proposal for the continued use of these systems by the UK in 2021 has been met with a negative reaction by EU member states. The biggest criticism of the plan is that it would allow Britain to effectively retain membership rights without the responsibility of actual membership, a position that the EU has repeatedly stated would be unacceptable.

It has even been suggested that the UK’s access to SIS II criminal suspect database could even be blocked completely prior to the end of the transition agreement. The British government has indicated that only receiving basic permissions to the information within SIS would be insufficient and that the country must have a similar level of access as before.

The British police and border guards are the third-highest users of the database according to the EU’s own information. Therefore the loss of access to SIS could greatly weaken crime data sharing between both the UK and European countries in both directions.

A draft EU resolution in January, made before the UK had officially left the European bloc, suggested that the UK’s access to SIS should end before the transition period expires. This is due to Britain’s status as a “third country” in the EU.

Christian Petry, the European Affairs spokesperson for the German Social Democratic Party accused Britain of “cherry-picking”, whilst the German Green Party explained that the UK’s continued participation in these schemes would depend on accepting the EU data protection standards and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ).

BREXIT DEADLINE “IMPOSSIBLE TO MEET”
This is not the first time a leaked document has appeared during the negotiations. In early April 2020, a letter from the German ambassador for the EU was leaked detailing the extent that the European Council’s operations had been slowed by the COVID-19 outbreak in Europe.

It indicated that the December 31st deadline for an agreement between the UK and EU to be struck would now be almost impossible to meet.

In the meantime, however, the UK government’s official position is to refuse an extension to the transition period that is due to expire at the start of 2021. Whether these changes due to the development of the COVID-19 outbreak in Europe is yet to be seen.

UK REGISTRATION OF EU/EEA CITIZENS UNDER THE EU SETTLEMENT SCHEME
As of May 2020, the UK has registered the data of 3.5 million EU/EEA citizens under the Government’s EU Settlement Scheme. This has been created to allow nationals from EU 27 countries who are currently living in Britain to settle permanently in the UK after the transition period ends.

The British parliament has also made moves to widen the scheme to ensure that vulnerable residents would be adequately protected. This is hoped to make it easier for victims of domestic and familial abuse to have their residency approved.

Furthermore, the recent modifications also make it easier for the family of UK citizens to register for settled status under the scheme.

Eligible citizens have until June 30th, 2021 to apply for the settlement scheme. It is also possible for any EU national to register for the programme when arriving to live in Britain before the transition period ends.

[Montanan]

For those that have exposure to, or interest in Brexit and the marine implications I recommend one sign up for the weekly newsletter from British Marine as they likely will be providing updates on VAT Paid Status and temporary importation matters [e.g., the Temporary Admittance TA / Temporary Import scheme; A boat is temporarily imported into the EU and not into one of the constituent Member States. Thus it can move from one Member State to another with no further customs formalities during the 18 month period allowed. After 18 months the yacht must be exported before re-entering the EU under the same rules.]

Sign up for the British Marine e-newletter at the bottom of the webpage linked here:

https://britishmarine.co.uk/

British Marine is the trade association for the UK leisure, superyacht and small commercial marine industry. Our 1,500+ members come from a broad range of businesses including boat builders, chandlers, brokers, marinas, passenger boats and engines.

Also, the Royal Yachting Association RYA has a very useful reference website which likely will be promptly kept up to date as to all things BREXITISH.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...es/Brexit.aspx

Info from British Marine:

Vat Paid Status Brexit Advice
Guidance as of September 2019.

For boat owners, builders, brokers and distributors there remains doubt and confusion as to where they stand, particularly regarding VAT Paid Status (VPS) should there be a hard Brexit. Guidance issued by the EU Commission earlier this year was framed (as always) in highly technical legal speak and appeared to be more focused on goods being supplied and/or imported/exported on or around the time of Brexit.

There was and remains little to no clear guidance as to ‘means of transport’ (for our purposes yachts, boats, pleasurecraft) or circumstances where those goods were already in free circulation and effectively possessions. The UK HMRC and Treasury policy teams have been engaged to seek further clarification and assurance, but the responses have primarily been limited to references to returning goods and have fallen well short of addressing our member’s concerns.

So where does that leave us?

The generally held basic understanding further to the EU’s missive is that a boat’s VPS will be determined by its physical location at ‘B-Time’; therefore (assuming the boat has pre-existing VPS):

If the boat is within EU waters at B-Time, it will have deemed EU27 VPS

If the boat is within UK waters at B-Time, it will lose any pre-existing EU27 VPS and will subsequently be subject to the same conditions as any other non-VPS boat when entering and operating within EU27 waters and ports

Note that the above is irrespective of the country of registration or nationality of ownership.

But this is not necessarily wholly correct nor does it provide the full picture; a whole range of scenarios are emerging where there remains a lack of any sort of clarity, or indeed where the perceived understanding simply does not make sense; some of the more commonly mentioned scenarios are detailed at the link here:

https://britishmarine.co.uk/News/201...-Brexit-advice

1. EU resident, with VAT paid within the EU27 and boat within the EU27 at B-Time: Relatively simple – has EU27 VPS and would operate under TA if visiting the UK, but would require formal importation and VAT payable if being acquired to remain substantively in the UK.

2. UK resident, with UK VAT paid and boat within UK at B-Time: According to the understanding, the boat would retain its UK VPS but lose its EU27 VPS; the owner would be allowed to and visit sail within the EU27 territories, subject to the TA conditions, but any purchase by an EU resident wishing to use the boat with the EU27 would require EU27 VAT to be paid – effectively devaluing the boat in the EU market.

3: UK resident, with UK VAT paid and boat within EU27 at B-Time: Based on the current understanding, the best position (or least worst…); the boat will have deemed EU27 VPS AND eligible for UK RGR, although HMRC acknowledge that need not necessarily be formally operated as the boat will not have been ‘exported’ and will have demonstrably UK VAT paid.

4. UK resident, with EU VAT paid and boat within the EU27 at B-Time: The boat will have deemed EU27 VPS, meaning free movement – and importantly the ability to sell with no further VAT – within the EU; however, as currently stands (and HMRC have not been able to clarify), the vessel would NOT have UK VPS, therefore returning to the UK would present a problem. The vessel could, if likely to be substantively used and moored within the UK, be subject to relocated possessions relief, but there are quite restrictive conditions and the probability that this would result in the loss of the EU27 VPS…

5. EU resident owner, with EU27 or UK VAT paid, with the boat in UK at B-Time: The boat would have deemed/explicit UK VPS but would lose its EU27VPS; the difference for the owner from 2 above, is that owner would have to pay VAT (again) to be able to use and/or sell the boat within the EU27.

6. EU/UK residents with EU27 or UK VPS, with the boat in international waters or ex-UE28 port: This is not apparently covered by the guidance, which explicitly refers to ‘goods’ being in either the UK or the EU27 at B-Time, or in transit between two specified points.


What should I do?

As a boat owner, you need to consider:

* What and where is the current VPS of the boat
* Where you are most likely to use, moor and sail the boat
* When you are considering selling the boat and what is the preferred market

If following the above examples this leads you to the conclusion that EU27 VPS is materially important in the immediate post-(hard) Brexit world, then you should consider making arrangements for the boat to be within (and documented as such) the EU27 at B-Time, BUT it is important to take into account ALL the factors and take advice before committing.

Clear as mud.

Being from Montaña, all so not an issue as to my recreational pursuits, but BREXIT impacts my subsidiaries and clients, so need to remain in the know.
We don't have hurricanes and we don't have Sales or Use tax, nor VAT.

[mikedefieslife]

Of course there will be many boats that were built before VAT even existed. Like my 42 year old Prout. I remember once being ask about VAT (can't remember where now), but I do remember having a light chuckle and pointing out the age of the boat. To which the officials then recognised their over enthusiasm.

[Montanan]

Update from Boris Johnson today. Continued lack of progress. No Deal Looking more and more likely. As to VAT Paid status well that will likely revert to be just become a matter of where the good [including boats] is located on January 1, 2021. One will need to chose and should chose wisely and make plans far in advance, no joy moving the boat in winter across the channel.

Or have an old Pre-VAT boat as mentioned in the previous post.

Yet unclear as to whether a separate Schengen deal might occur, e.g., to allow UKers the right to stay for 6 months instead of the ordinary 90 days in any 180 day period for non-EU citizens.

"The EU says a deal has to be struck before November to allow time for parliamentary approval and legal vetting before the transition period expires.

Johnson gave an even shorter deadline in remarks he's due to deliver on Monday, saying an agreement needed to be sealed by an EU summit scheduled for Oct. 15.

“If we can’t agree by then, then I do not see that there will be a free trade agreement between us, and we should both accept that and move on,” he said in the comments, which were released in advance by his office.

Without a deal, British freight firms have warned there could be logjams at ports and supplies of key goods in Britain could be “severely disrupted" starting Jan. 1."

SNAFU.