Best country to flag

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lou254

How about the country you live in ? I always heard love it or leave. You are free to leave most countries. I would suggest leave and become a citizen and fly whatever flag you want. How do you think a member of the US Coast guard or insert the name of any nation would feel risking or having lost life to rescue or defend a flag of convenience ? Just because you can will not make it right or moral. You can legally deal drugs in some places of the world. Women can be legally treated to a much different standard. You can go to whatever place and stay within the law of the land. In the end is it right? Do you feel good to know you saved some money that you need so bad. If you lived in said country or keep your boat there that might be the best. I say all this without malice. All this was probably a waste of time . Regards, Lou

Maybe you should determine the facts before presuming to be so self-righteous.

If you check his previous posts, the OP lives in Costa Rica, works all over South/Central America and the Caribbean and currently keeps his boat in Panama. In his situation, he has completely valid reasons for currently being registered in Panama and looking for alternatives.

[Lou254]

Originally Posted by StuM

Maybe you should determine the facts before presuming to be so self-righteous.

If you check his previous posts, the OP lives in Costa Rica, works all over South/Central America and the Caribbean and currently keeps his boat in Panama. In his situation, he has completely valid reasons for currently being registered in Panama and looking for alternatives.

Sorry not trying to be self-righteous. I said no malice is intended. I would think Costa Rica might be a nice place to flag? He basically lives in South or Central America? I think the reason is about saving money. I can understand that. If a person feels that what ever service is not fair or good why pay for it? It is like a tip you leave the waiter or the fishing or hunting license you buy. I am just pointing out someone's Coast Guard Marine Weather Service, Channel markers and so on are paid by fees. I understand when a Canadian flags a boat in the US and spends 6 months a year in US waters. No problem if a US resident flags a boat and lives in Mexico with it. Big companies flag ships all over the world. Flag of convince it is all legal. When is it ok and when is it not ? I was just wondering if it is all about money and how to save it ? Do we need to punish the taxman ? Are we just pointing out our superior intellect ? We love the chase and the chance to use our wits? These are the questions. I really do not have answers only questions. Regards, Lou

[SV DestinyAscen]

Never heard of coast guard or emegrxny personnel complaining about helping foreigners or flag of convenience. No one makes such adistinction . Likewise when I drive through Utah no one cares I'm not from Utah.

Think Lou is just finding something to pick at.

[Lou254]

Hey I do want to thank the OP , for starting this thread and those that have directly stepped up and explored what I have posted. I may be picking that is a way for me to learn. I am getting some lessons here for sure. I don't think by any way shape or form I am about to influence anyone. The captain will flag his boat where they want. I have asked a few why and what is the reason behind the why. Regards, Lou

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

Never heard of coast guard or emegrxny personnel complaining about helping foreigners or flag of convenience. No one makes such adistinction . Likewise when I drive through Utah no one cares I'm not from Utah.

Think Lou is just finding something to pick at.

I think this is universal among mariners. In all the accounts of yachters who were rescued at sea by vessels of various flags and nationalities the stories universally speak of the well intentioned efforts of the crews and their hospitality once safe on board.

During WW2 this theme is also evident among the crews of warships that pulled enemy sailors out of freezing waters. The comradery and respect ran deep among those who always knew it could be themselves at any time; fighting not against a human foe, but the sea.

[El Pinguino]

My Certificate of British Registry quite clearly states, on the reverse...

'IMPORTANT INFORMATION

* A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership

* Details of registered mortgages are not shown.

*........ '

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

My Certificate of British Registry quite clearly states, on the reverse...

'IMPORTANT INFORMATION

* A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership

* Details of registered mortgages are not shown.

*........ '

No personal knowledge, but does this perhaps reflect the easy acquisition of the British registration? Seems that I've read here on CF how easy it is to come by...

When you don't have to provide the chain of ownership data, which is a PITA in many cases, the rego obviously can't provide any proof of ownership.

There ain't no free lunch in bureaucracy, unless you are a bureaucrat.

Jim

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No personal knowledge, but does this perhaps reflect the easy acquisition of the British registration? Seems that I've read here on CF how easy it is to come by...

When you don't have to provide the chain of ownership data, which is a PITA in many cases, the rego obviously can't provide any proof of ownership.

There ain't no free lunch in bureaucracy, unless you are a bureaucrat.

Jim

Dunno about that .... mine has been on Part 1 ( same same QE2 etc ) of the British Registry since birth and I had no trouble changing it to my name as I am a British citizen.

Probably a lot different trying to put some old clunker on the register and to do it the owner/s must be ..

'British citizens or non-United Kingdom nationals exercising their right of freedom of movement of workers or right of establishment under Article 48 or 52 of the EEC Treaty or Article 28 or 31 of the EEA Agreement;
d Persons who under the British Nationality Order 1981 are British subjects; e Persons who under the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986 are
.....Bodies corporate incorporated in any relevant British Possession and having their principal place of business in the UK or any such possession;
British Dependent Territories citizens; British Overseas citizens:
British Nationals (Overseas):
Bodies corporate incorporated in an EEA State;
SECTION 3: REPRESENTATIVE PERSON / MANAGING OWNER
* If none of the owners making up the majority interest is resident in the UK, a representative person must be appointed. (A body corporate is treated as resident if it has a place of business in the UK)
* A representative person is either an individual resident in the UK, or a body corporate incorporated in an EEA country which has a place of business in the UK.
* If more than 1 owner is resident in the UK one of them must be appointed as the managing owner. This must be one of the owners in the majority interest.
either: I/we appoint the following to be the ship’s Representative person
Full Name / Company Name Address / Place of Business in UK
NB: If there is a change to the details in this section, the Registrar must be informed within 7 days of the change occurring.
or: I/we appoint the following to be the ship’s managing owner
Name in full.
SECTION 4: DECLARATION (must be signed by all those named in section 2)
I / we declare that:.......
 to the best of my / our knowledge and belief, a majority interest in the ship is owned by persons
qualified to be owners of British ships, and the ship is otherwise entitled to be registered on Part
1;
 any Nationals of an EEA country other than the UK, who are represented in the majority interest
are established (within the meaning of Article 48 or 52 of the EEC Treaty or Article 28 or 31 of the EEA Agreement) in the UK;
N.B. For companies and European Economic Interest Groupings, an authorized officer of each of the companies or groupings must sign this form....."

So I reckon you are SOL there, Jimbo, if you're wishing to 'flag out' .

That said the UK register as used today by big ships is just another FOC.....

[Pelagic]

I have copies of Deeds of Sale for my Dutch built boat, going back to original German owner, along with accompanying registries from different countries

[helise]

Originally Posted by RPZ

That's what THEY say. And I get your point. But any U.S. flagged vessel, registered or unregistered (a vessel's nationality can be the verbal claim of the boat's master - that is written into CG definitions) is considered U.S. sovereign territory.

A baby born on a U.S. flagged vessel can be entitled to U.S. citizenship. A crime, such as a murder, on a U.S. flagged vessel could be tried in a U.S. court. An attack of any kind, an illegal by force boarding of, or illegal seizure of a U.S. flagged vessel is considered a hostile act against the United States. The extent with which the government presses a protective or forceful intervention, rebuttal, retaliation etc might vary. But obligation and jurisdiction is there.

Extra terroritorial jurisdiction exists by ratified (by Congress) treaty with other countries to extend U.S. law into some foreign countries and actions on the high seas against drug traffickers, human traffickers etc.

International law can only really be applied to commercial air and sea traffic by ratified treaty. As a private citizen of a sovereign nation on a private vessel they lack jurisdiction.

Now if you get off your U.S. flagged boat, and board someone's Australian flagged boat and commit a serious crime, you could be tried in an Australian court.

Hello RPZ,

You don't sound mariners but bureaucrat.

"Under U.S. law going back to its foundation there is a distinct separation of jurisdiction between commerce and the activities of citizens not engaged in commerce.

But any U.S. flagged vessel, registered or unregistered.

International law can only really be applied to commercial air and sea traffic by ratified treaty. As a private citizen of a sovereign nation on a private vessel they lack jurisdiction".

I just got here Phuket, Thailand from Singapore. I was informed yesterday that two American flagged private own yachts being detained. One in Philippines and one in Singapore because lack of safety equipment on-board.

I am very sure that you have not travelling far enough from State. US laws are good within US and not others.

Furthermore, I am here to challenging you to bring your unregistered yacht to these part of the world, if you are a man.

Back to the OP : Best country to flag.

The Certificate of Registry is used to document vessels for Ownership in order to provide definitive evidence of nationality for international treaty purposes.

One needs to comply with the International Laws and not Local Laws if sailing beyond it territorial waters.

As a Briton, I was in the State for more than 15 years and don't seen best place to lives, so we left for good.

In my opinion, best country to flag for your yacht definitely NOT US flag. Recommended Langkawi International Yacht Registry (LIYR).

Cheers.......

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by helise

Hello RPZ,

You don't sound mariners but bureaucrat.

"Under U.S. law going back to its foundation there is a distinct separation of jurisdiction between commerce and the activities of citizens not engaged in commerce.

But any U.S. flagged vessel, registered or unregistered.

International law can only really be applied to commercial air and sea traffic by ratified treaty. As a private citizen of a sovereign nation on a private vessel they lack jurisdiction".

I just got here Phuket, Thailand from Singapore. I was informed yesterday that two American flagged private own yachts being detained. One in Philippines and one in Singapore because lack of safety equipment on-board.

I am very sure that you have not travelling far enough from State. US laws are good within US and not others.

Furthermore, I am here to challenging you to bring your unregistered yacht to these part of the world, if you are a man.

Back to the OP : Best country to flag.

The Certificate of Registry is used to document vessels for Ownership in order to provide definitive evidence of nationality for international treaty purposes.

One needs to comply with the International Laws and not Local Laws if sailing beyond it territorial waters.

As a Briton, I was in the State for more than 15 years and don't seen best place to lives, so we left for good.

In my opinion, best country to flag for your yacht definitely NOT US flag. Recommended Langkawi International Yacht Registry (LIYR).

Cheers.......

I am not a bureaucrat, but I do know about jurisdiction having several years worked for a U.S. Department of Defense law enforcement agency in a foreign country. There were areas of U.S. jurisdiction (U.S. Forces bases and facilities), areas of concurrent jurisdiction (overlapping), and areas of foreign jurisdiction (host nation).

Your example of two U.S. flagged private yachts detained for lack of safety equipment is a common occurrence. If you fail to carry such equipment in compliance with the host country's marine safety laws in their waters it can happen.

I challenge you to find a single documented example of a private noncommercial sailboat's master being cited, fined or having their boat seized as a result of failing to comply with the SOLAS regulations on the high seas.

Secondly, called the U.S. State Department and ask them who has jurisdiction onboard any registered U.S. flagged vessel on the high seas.

Thirdly, call the government of Langkawi and ask them just out of curiosity if you can carry firearms on your Langkawi flagged private sailboat. I will say they will tell you, NO. Why? Because on board a Langkawi flagged vessel is Langkawi sovereign territory.

Now, when you enter the waters of any other country you will be subject to their sovereign laws and jurisdiction. For example in some countries a flare gun ( legal in the U.S. as a distress signal) is illegal.

International laws are the result of treaties between nations for national defense and trade. Codes and regulations for air and sea traffic apply to commercial flagged vessels.

Try and find a single documented example of a U.S. citizen being fined, imprisoned or having their noncommercial U.S. flagged sailboat "violating a SOLAS regulation under international law" on the high seas. You will not find one.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by helise

......Furthermore, I am here to challenging you to bring your unregistered yacht to these part of the world, if you are a man.

In my opinion, best country to flag for your yacht definitely NOT US flag. Recommended Langkawi International Yacht Registry (LIYR).

Cheers.......

Welcome to CF Helise.[emoji106]

Please read the 'be nice' rules as it will help you make more sales as an Agent for Langkawi. Registry.

I agree that Langkawi is a good choice but I noticed your costs were considerably higher than the Agent I use.

Are you able to give us a break down of your charges?

[Lou254]

A flag of convince is all about money and how to avoid taxes ? Could it have other fringe benefits ? please read on through my random thoughts. I will assume some one will comment . My next question is how problematic will it be to live in one country flag in a second and go through customs in others for a pleasure craft ? Is this just a way to dock something or is it a good way to travel? Would it hide my nationality if I wished to do so ? For example I would not be the American everyone loves to hate. I could fly a flag and have a better experience flying some other flag? What flags are truly the best? I see several recommended Malaysia. Malta has be mentioned, Panama must be falling out of favor. Maybe because of the Panama papers ? Has the OP made comments or participated much since starting This ? This thread would be a good place for a lawyer or agent. They could give some precise information. No insults intended here I am reading what has been posted. I will come back to other comments later. I want to stay close to on topic. Regards, Lou

[RPZ]

Lou,

Foreign flagging your boat would not hide your nationality as upon arrival you would be required to produce your passport or other identifying travel document issued by your government.

I suppose it might fool anyone not privy to your document and verbal exchanges with the host country authorities if all they had to go on is your flag. Of course depending on the name of your boat that might give your game away too. To the shrewd observer other things might tip them off too.

[Lou254]

Anyone care to say at what value it becomes feasible to explore a flag of convince. I mean I am going to say a 20- 30,000 dollar boat is not going to be worthwhile to seek a avoiding taxes or even getting documented .Now if you have 100,000 or 200,000 are you at the level to seek out a flag or are we looking well above this. Anyone want to throw out an opinion. Regards, Lou