Please Help with Some Guidance & Advice

[darkdog64]

Hi everyone,
A short while ago my wife and I decided to take a break from the rat race and go cruising. We have both done some limited sailing in the past but not too much (we have our day skippers tickets).

We are a family of four (five including Hobbes our labradoodle) and we are looking for some advice/guidance in a couple of areas-

Where to go?
We are located in BC 4hrs drive from Vancouver and the coast. And we want to factor into our decision our kids boy 8, girl 10, or they will be by the time we leave.

We are considering three areas right now (but open to ideas) Greek islands, sea of Cortez, and the caribean. We want to expose our children to other cultures.

We are looking for areas with like minded families, safe, not too challenging until we have developed more sailing skills and fun - we want to snorkel/scuba etc. And we would like to do it on a modest budget $20k per annum.

Also with the above in mind what kind of sailboat do you recommend? We have a budget of $100k +\- and considering 38'-44' monohull.

Thanks in advance for any guidance advice.

[maxingout]

If I wanted to go to an affordable location and expose the kids to a new culture, I would go to the south coast of Turkey. The cruising is great and very affordable. Lots of charters are available. Tours to the interior of Turkey are reasonably priced. There are more ancient Greek ruins in Turkey than in Greece. Ephesus and Heriopolis are unforgettable.

[osirissail]

What is missing from your questions is "How long do you want to be gone cruising?" That is a major determinant. Here is my take on the subject:
- - For short term cruising the suggestion about the Med and Turkey are really very good as you will certainly be in areas of maximum historical culture. The Med is full of all the ancient sites and modern styles of living that are quite different from North American life. The kids will greatly benefit from seeing/experiencing how the "other" people of the world live and work.
- - For "sabbatical" type cruising - one or two years or so - then the Caribbean Basin, which includes all the islands and the coastline countries of South and Central America - are the best suggestion. The cultures, especially the Spanish Islands/countries are a dramatic change from North American living. The eastern Caribbean is closest to "normal" living and cultures for North Americans than anywhere else in the Caribbean Basin. They are different, but not that different.
- - The west coast of Central America is really a short or medium length "vacation" experience. Different, but more geared to the tourist than anything else. And some areas are downright deserted - great geography but not much else.

[Surveyor]

From your current location, if you sail to Greece through the Pcanal, you can do all three! There is "culture" in every small port along the way.

[JustThinking]

All of us are different (thank God!) so it's really hard to give "advice".
All I can tell you is, that when I met my third wife, she had a daughter of 4. I took them both along on the boat and while the mother had severe problems to adapt (she had been lake sailing and vacation sailing before, but cruising year round is a different story all together, also when it comes to the type of weather you every now and then have to deal with) the kid did just great! She grew up from a spoiled rug-rat to the most wonderful and responsible young lady in a heartbeat ... and her and I having fun together and being "conspirators" put quite a lot of stress to my marriage (jealousy).
She'd clean the freshly caught fish with a big knife no prob., and her mother would freak out .... that type of stress....

As to cruising grounds: Dont know what my fellow posters here got to say, but I wouldnt suggest the Caribbean for starters. Reefs, Currents, anchorages that take caution and experience, no sheltered marinas to pull up in for a really good nights sleep without worries.......

On the other hand, the Med has plenty such marinas plus lots of charming old fishing ports and LOTS of history, culture and a different language within a days sail.

If you buy and move onto the boat by late spring you have plenty of time to test how your family will cope with first of all living in a rather confined space prior to ever leaving port. Comes April/May the Med converts to pretty much a huge bathtub which will not be much of a terrifying challenge until Mid September when you'd have to start to look out for the occasional earl fall gale. (Mallorca i.e. sees one of those usually by Mid- end of September and after that its really nice sailing weather again all the way up to Christmas...)

Also: For long distance (incl. Caribbean) cruising I'd prefer a multihull while thats not too great an idea in the Med. Most anchorages are deep enough until quite close to the shore (so the reduced draft of the Cat is not much of an advantage) but the Marinas are crowded and they tend to charge twice the price of a mono of same length if you show up with a Cat (and that is only if they can accommodate you at all)

Yeah, if I was you, I would try to get myself some dirt cheap boat, something to mess around with and which you can always sell again for the same you bought it for. I'd buy it in the Med and go cruising here (eastern Med is nice, but dont disregard the beauty of the western part of it either) - Once you and your family have tested your seagoing abilities, your ableness to live together on confined space ......... time for step two: Go and buy something you like, and go cruising around the globe!


(BTW: 4hours from Vancouver? You are not by any chance somewhere near Kelowna, where a client of ours simply is not paying his 100 K $ bill?! :-) )

[Randyonr3]

You Can Spend years in the Sea of Cortez and not cover the same tracks, very cheep to live...
As far as boats, take a small trip to La Paz and check out whats there as many who sail down will sell befor comming back up the hill.. The trip down from your area on the west coast is all down hill with the wind at your back and normally gets better as you travel south but its still NOT a fun trip.. we've done it a couple times and its a waste of time comming down the coast, just to get to the nicer areas..

[Surveyor]

Originally Posted by JustThinking

(BTW: 4hours from Vancouver? You are not by any chance somewhere near Kelowna, where a client of ours simply is not paying his 100 K $ bill?! :-) )

There are several of us here the will fly there and break some legs for the usual collection fee percentage on the amount you state above!

[JustThinking]

Originally Posted by Surveyor

There are several of us here the will fly there and break some legs for the usual collection fee percentage on the amount you state above!

Even so your suggestion sounds tempting - I think it'd be enough to file a mechanics lien against his (Million $$ !) house (which we did work for) ... and if I could only settle for half I could already go and buy my next boat! (After (gladly!) paying your commission!!!......... but am straying off topic here :-(

[darkdog64]

Yep, Kelowna

[darkdog64]

Originally Posted by osirissail

What is missing from your questions is "How long do you want to be gone cruising?" That is a major determinant. Here is my take on the subject:
- - For short term cruising the suggestion about the Med and Turkey are really very good as you will certainly be in areas of maximum historical culture. The Med is full of all the ancient sites and modern styles of living that are quite different from North American life. The kids will greatly benefit from seeing/experiencing how the "other" people of the world live and work.
- - For "sabbatical" type cruising - one or two years or so - then the Caribbean Basin, which includes all the islands and the coastline countries of South and Central America - are the best suggestion. The cultures, especially the Spanish Islands/countries are a dramatic change from North American living. The eastern Caribbean is closest to "normal" living and cultures for North Americans than anywhere else in the Caribbean Basin. They are different, but not that different.
- - The west coast of Central America is really a short or medium length "vacation" experience. Different, but more geared to the tourist than anything else. And some areas are downright deserted - great geography but not much else.

12 months, could be extended... Hopefully.

[darkdog64]

Thanks for the great and quick responses everyone, this forum is great!

What boat tho? A Cat would be comfortable but probably out of budget, I like the idea of the space tho. An Oyster80... Just dreaming. Would you chose comfort over durability factoring the budget constraints? A Beneteau vs a Halberg Rassy? No offense to either make.

What will hold value?

AndJustThinking, I am in Kelowna if I can help.

[JustThinking]

I would say, the Halberg Rassey .. a make I have always liked because it sort of combines performance (within limits) with living-comfort and, of course also worth consideration, these things do cost more than others but that's due to the also retaining their value better than others.

But, at the end of the day I guess it always will boil down to personal taste and preferences.

(Ref Kelowna: Great! But I'll contact you about that via PM not to abuse the forum nor to stray too far off topic here. Thanks!)

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by darkdog64

12 months, could be extended... Hopefully.

With that in mind, I would suggest ruling out the Med which has a short sailing season in the summer months and a need to "hide out somewhere" for the rest of the year. ** However, it you want to consider significant land travel/touring during the "off-season" then the Med is a very viable choice. In-season sailing from one country to another and off-season riding the "rails" all over the interior of Europe. Sort of, best of both worlds. You might be able to do a seasonal rental of a boat and not have to deal with purchasing and certifying the boat and you. Also you could plan a series of local rentals in different locations and save having to move the boat over long distances.
- - For the off-season you can purchase Eurail Passes while you are in North America which will allow you to climb on just about any train, flash your passes and take off for the next city/village/whatever. We did that for a couple of years when my daughter was a sub-teen and we will never forget the experience. If you get someplace and it is boring you hop back on the next train, flash your pass and move on to a new place. See: Eurail Select Pass FAQs & Travel Tips from Rail Europe

- - From you list of regions in the OP the next choice would be the Caribbean Basin. This area is also season sensitive where you can do the northern regions of the Caribbean Basin in the Winter season and then move to the southern and western areas of the Caribbean Basin in the summer season. So you can live the whole year on the boat. You can find and purchase boats in just about all the northern and eastern Caribbean islands at reasonable prices and save having to get the boat from home to the Caribbean. That will save significant money and time.

[Adelie]

In Europe, you might consider:

Amel-Kirk 36.
$30-75k. 3 decent sea-berths. Spade or partial skeg rudder. The boat only draws 5'3" meaning that you might be able to cruise some of the canals. Boat is comparatively narrow at 9.5’
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=5236


In the US:

Cal36
$20-40K. 2 good and 1 decent sea-berths. Spade rudder.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=1599

Cal40
$42-115k. 4 good and 1 decent sea-berths. Spade rudder.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=1977

Cascade 36
$27-84k. 1 good, 1 decent, 1 mediocre sea-berths. Some boats have alternative interior arrangements which might give you another sea-berth. Spade rudder. Some vessels factory rigged as cutter.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=1639

Cascade 42
$48-70k. 3 decent 1 mediocre sea-berths. Some boats have alternative interior arrangements which might give you another sea-berth. Substantial full skeg. Aft cabin, some with interior tunnel, some not. some vessels factory rigged as cutter.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=3927

Cal34-1
$14-30k. 2 good & 1 mediocre sea-berth. Spade rudder will turn 360, useful for backing and potentially better for heaving to. -2 & -3 models have different layouts and a minor rig change.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=1292

Catalina38
$35-140. 1good 1 decent and 1 mediocre berths. Semi-skeg rudder.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=2274

Catalina36
$36-103. 2good and 2 decent berths. Semi-skeg rudder.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=1862

Catalina34
$38-90+. 1 good 1 decent 1 mediocre berths. Semi-skeg rudder.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=1788

I would consider quarter berths and pilot berths to be good sea-berths, you don't need to convert them from another use such as settee seating and being nearer the center of the boat motion is better. Aft cabin berths and settee seats requiring conversion to sleep in would be decent. An L or U shaped settee/dinette would be mediocre as conversion for use would be required and the un-used short leg or legs would be used by the on watch 4th person, meaning increased potential for disturbing the person using the berth. When counting berths, if there was a settee seat that could be a decent sea-berth but there was no other place for the watch to sit, like a seat at a chart table, I didn’t count it at all.

An aft cabin might also be a mixed blessing for other reason. On the one hand the kids each get their own berth in their own cabin. On the other hand access to the main cabin may be thru the cockpit, no tunnel.

I personally don't have a problem with spade rudders offshore if well build such as by Amel, Cal and Cascade, but some people have differing opinions both about spades in general and these makers specifically. The quality of Catalinas are a bit more controversial but in general the production runs for these boats have been so long that most foibles have been found and fixes well documented.

All of the Cal and Cascade boats have had examples circumnavigate. I don't know about the Kirk or the Catalinas.

My reccommendation would be the Cal40 sea-berths, light-air performance, quality and generally being a well behaved boat.

My wife and I are looking strongly at the Cal34 for a cruise to New Zealand with our 2 kids. It combines 2 good berths for the kids, good performance in a comparatively smaller package that makes handling easier in a blow or a bad anchorage and that makes going un-insured thinkable. I want to be able to ditch the boat without second-guessing myself, so the boat needs to be insured or cheaper. Smaller boat will also be more easily maintained, moored and daysailed in the lead-up to the cruise and after.

Luck
Adelie

[sea1ljs]

There are a lot of great suggestions here in this thread, good luck sorting them all out. So here's my 2 cents worth. You stated in your query that your sailing has been somewhat limited. No problem there but take into consideration the transition from land to boat living. A LOT will change. When I first moved onboard I went through everything I owned and if I hadn't used or even seen it in the last 12 months I got rid of it. It's amazing how little you really need to enjoy life. Buying a boat and moving aboard is just the first step of many. To ensure that you don’t ruin the dream it would be advisable to spend a season on the boat just to learn all the systems and how to repair them yourself. Not to mention everyone getting use to living in a smaller space. I live on a center cockpit boat,(Endevour 43) because I like the way it has two distinct living areas. Others prefer aft cockpit boats for there own reasons. There are those who like performance style boats that will sail well in light air and those who prefer comfort over performance. I fall into the later category because 80% of cruising is at anchor, you’re not sailing 24/7 yearound. Buying a used boat can be a great adventure. Beware of the sales pitch where it states “turn key”, “ready to go now”. Lots of time the equipment, particularly electronics, listed on the boat for the previous owner’s cruising time has been used up or is now outdated. Why spend money for someone else’s equipment that you’ll end up replacing anyway. My vote would be to cruise the inside of Vancouver Island area, a place people spend big bucks to cruise in and its right in your backyard. Get used to living on the boat for a year then head down the coast to Mexico. It’s cheap and there’s a great cruising community to plug into as well as the Mexican culture. And no, the crime down there is not anywhere near where you would be. From there your options are limitless. Check out Latitude 38 online, a wealth of information cruising Mexico as well as all the areas suggested in this forum. Good luck, I hope it works for you and your family.