Soot problems with Dickinson Heater?

[sv_pelagia]

Interesting that no one has mentioned the use of a barometric damper, which Dickinson states is needed for some flue lengths.

http://dickinsonmarine.com/product/s...metric-damper/

[I have a Dickinson Antarctic furnace, without damper. Great heat - - and fast water heating - - but I do not trust while in motion (I have had 1 big sooty backdraft). Hence my consideration of damper.]


FYI: Dickinson states that a CO monitor should be installed.

[mvweebles]

At the time, my SigMarine unit recommended a dual flue - the one you'd expect our the top, and one from the bottom that also exits outside, perhaps adjacent to the normal flue.idea was to balance the pressure. No way was I installing two 3" flues.

[wrwakefield]

It is rare to find a vessel that doesn't have some type of non forced-air diesel heater up here. I ​rarely see any dirty decks​- ​but it can happen.​ (Below I'll list the ranked causes of sooting with this kind of heater that I've experienced​ over time.)

​I have had heaters like this on 4 of 5 boats I've owned over the past 4 decades. All were full time cruisers I used in higher latitudes. (>56°N in the Pacific.)​

​I installed a​ Sig Marine 120 (equivalent to the Dickinson Newport) ​on our current boat. This winter it ​has only been turned off a handful of times (when the boat is unoccupied) since November while we work on some winter projects at the dock. No soot. No backdrafting. (But we have been using this type of heater in 4 boats over the past 4 decades, so the learning curve is well absorbed.)

We find the heater output is too much in our 43 ft ​ketch if ambient temps are ​in the 40's °F. We then have to open ports and hatches to keep from overheating on the lowest setting- ​if we do light it in those temps...​ (This boat has several redundant sources of heat.)​

Our ​SIGMAR ​heater is on the lowest setting most of the time- ​sometimes elevated ​closer ​to a medium setting when ​its single digits above zero F and blowing outside...

What ​experience can I share specifically about this size and type of heater with a 3" flue​?​ (​Following is a ​dense ​​overview full of hints for the truly interested...)

Here is Dickenson's version for reference.


Installation is important:

• Keep ​the total ​flue length ​a ​minimum of 6 ft, max of 8 ft
  
  
• Straight flue is best. ​I​f you must dog​-​leg​ the​ flue​, don't use more than 2 elbows, and use the largest angle you can- with nothing less than 45°.
  
  
• Install a barometric damper​. Locate it​ no further than 24 inches from where the flue exits the heater​, and no closer to the heater than 12 inches. (Most complaints about sooting are about installs lacking a barometric damper. Sometimes they are improperly installed, and sometimes they are not properly adjusted.)
  
  
• Carefully adjust the ​barometric ​damper per manufacturer's instructions​ (I inserted a photo of our barometric damper with the heater on low, below, for reference.)​
  
  
• Use an H cap​ (Charley-Nobel)​. Better at handling wind gusts than the round version​ in my experience​.​
  
  
• If planning to use the heater in temps cooler than about +20°F for extended periods, have a length of 4 inch diameter flue pipe you can ​temporarily ​slide over the 3 inch flue above deck to provide a layer of insulation- helping ​to ​keep the 3 inch flue warm​ to promote a consistent draft in cold weather.​
  
  
• Duct combustion air from ​an ​enclosed, vented space (our's draws from the engine room. This is where the bulk of the soot will go if you ever suffer an extreme backdraft.​ More below.)​
  
  
• Install a gravity feed day tank if you don't want to listen to a fuel pump burp every second or so while running the heater.
  
  Install a valve on the tank before the fuel hose.
  
  Our day tank is filled from the polishing loop for our starboard fuel tank. The day tank overflows back into the main starboard tank when full.
  
  
• Install a small shut-off valve at the fuel inlet on the heater. Develop the habit of closing it when the heater is off.
  
  This is a safety against fuel flowing through the overflow- draining the day tank- in the future when the small o-ring on the carburetor needle valve tip fails. (Ask me how I know this.)
  
  
• ​Run the overflow from the carburetor to the fuel tank if possible (vs. an overflow bottle.)
  
  If you do this, install a valve on that port on the heater, and remember to clost that valve temporarily when fueling the tank the return goes to- but only if you don't want to back-fill the heater if you overfill the boat. (i.e., fuel up the fuel fill hose- which will be higher than the heater carburetor...)​
  
  
• ​Remove the above deck portion of the flue when the heater is not in use for extended periods, and always when underway.
  
  Secure the opening with the cap made for the through-deck fitting installed on your boat.

Operational considerations:

• #1 diesel (AKA Heating oil​;​ kerosene​)​ burns much cleaner than #2 (The carburetor must be adjusted to match fuel selected​. See manufacturer's instructions.​)
  
  
• When first turning on fuel after preheat, ​set to medium ​flame size for at least 10 mins to warm the heater and flue. Then start turning ​it ​down a little bit at a time- pausing a few minuites between changes for the heater to equilibrate to the new setting.​ (This is not a thermostat; it is a fuel flow meter... give the heater time to adjust to each new setting.​)

What causes sooting? (Note that sooting either vents out of flue top onto the deck, or when back​ ​pressured into boat via the combustion air intake in the bottom of the heater.)​ If it happens, either Krud Kutter or Someone To Do It cream cleaner are the magical soot removers...

Following are the primary reasons sooting occurs, in order of their occurrence from my experience.​

• Cause #1: Preheating the heater using diesel fuel ​with a tissue paper ​wick as the manual instructs. This causes a build up of soot in the flue and in the bottom of the burn chamber over time.
  
  Instead, we use ab​o​ut 3/4 of an ounce of denatured alcohol- and​ a long neck lighter instead of​ tissue paper​​ to ignite it. We​ pour the alcohol into the middle of the COLD heater chamber, turn ​the ​combustion air fan on low; lite ​the ​alcohol​ (the fan being on keeps the alcohol from 'poofing' when you light it.)​ When the alcohol flame starts going below the burner ring​ (​2-3 mins on average​) turn on the fuel flow to a medium setting, and t​urn off ​the ​combustion air fan​ (​unless it is blowing outside... more on that, below.​)​
  
  
• Cause #2: ALWAYS make sure the flame is above the 'top burner ring' otherwise there is too much combustion air and not enough fuel = soot. Slightly increase the fuel flow to correct this issue.
  
  Side Note: that top burner ring is removable. Don't assume it is installed correctly. It can also cause a miriad of flame and soot issues if incorrectly installed. (Read the manual!)
  
  
• Cause #3: Too much fuel and not enough combustion air = SOOT! (i.e., Too large of a flame.)
  
  Either decrease fuel flow, or turn the combustion air fan on and adjust the air flow to optimize the flame.
  
  I believe this is the #1 cause of sooting on deck: people turning the heater up too high in hopes of heating the boat faster.
  
  
• Related Cause #3.5: As the heater warms after being first lit, in a few hours the carburetor will warm, thinning the fuel it contains, thereby causing the fuel to flow faster. This results in the flame size slowly increasing- perhaps unnoticed- and possibly getting large enough to cause sooting as described in #3.
  
  Be aware of this, and keep an eye on the flame. Always.
  
  
• Cause #4: Rapid wind gusts (over 35 knots for our installation) COMBINED with negative static pressure inside the boat​​ can snuff out the flame and cause a woof when the still flowing fuel reignites in the hot burn chamber- blowing soot out every small crack and the flue and air intake openings. This is the most dreaded.
  
  It ​sometimes ​happens to us when we experience katabatic gusts (williwaws)- typically in glacial fjords in certain conditions. Think zero to 60 knots in ​under10​ seconds.​
  
  S​ometimes ​slightly opening a hatch or port will help ​prevent a negative static pressure inside the boat ​in catabatic conditions​; ​and sometimes turning on the combustion air fan​- ​and increasing its speed to balance the wind gusts​-​ ​helps prevent the downdrafting.​

I hope this quick brain dump helps, and that I didn't forget anything critical.

These heaters are very ​safe if installed properly, and ​worthwhile if you ​are patient enough to learn how to use them. It is important to be very observant as you go through the learning curve of using and adjusting this type of heater​, and develop the habit of scrutinizing the flame on a routine basis. ​

​We love the fireplace ambience that comes with the nice radiant heat.​

Best wishes with your heater.

Cheers, Bill

[PhilipL]

I love my Sigmarine stove. But in strong winds it needs a barometric damper as the others say.


Having said that I have just had it going for a couple of hours and there was a goodly wind around the pontoon. The stove was going no problem at all.

[patja]

My boat came with a diesel Dickinson Newport installed in the cabin on the keel-stepped mast by a previous owner. The installation was poorly done with a leaky single-chamber flue. It was sort of functional, but the need to keep a hatch or the companionway cracked to allow fresh air in seemed to defeat the purpose of heating. And the soot buildup was a constant annoyance. Plus every time I used it I had to haul out a 2 - 3 foot chimney and screw it into the fitting on the deck. So it was very rarely used.



I know another owner of the same boat I have who has the same unit and is happy with it, mostly because he has a double-wall flue that supplies combustion air and the kicker -- he installed a small gravity feed fuel tank for it and only runs it on kerosene, which is a cleaner burn than diesel.


A couple years ago I removed the Dickinson. It is nice to have the cabin space back. I am considering either the Dickinson Propane unit and putting it back in the same spot, mounted on the mast, or possibly a hydronic system. The hydronic seems like the "best" solution but the installation would be a lot more work, and I am a little loathe to give up the storage space where the fan/radiator emitters would need to be installed.

[SV__Grace]

Great tips from Bill W. on Denali Rose in post #18 above. We've had our Dickinson Antarctic for 2 winters now and the following might be helpful-

1. Initial installation followed manufacturer's specs but resulted in downdrafts/blow outs every time the wind kicked up. Extending the flue length with a 3' extension solved that.

2. Owner's manual has great instructions for adjusting flame using a combination of the fan and damper. If you don't have a damper you're missing out on a good way to adjust the flame, which should be 100% above the ring and bright yellow.

3. In our desperation to solve the downdraft problem we researched and found the Vacu-Stack flue cap (see attached image) and it is amazing. No blow outs or downdrafts in any amount of wind and the flame seems to like the "vacuum" effect and actually burns better the higher the wind.

4. I don't know about other units but ours definitely has a "sweet spot" and if we keep it there it will be happy as long as it stays there. Adjusting the flame down to save fuel or up to increase heat always seems to cause a problem- too low and the unit creates too much carbon that eventually fouls the interior requiring turning it off to clean it out. Using the fan and closing the damper I can successfully get the fire hotter but when I turn it down and adjust the fan or turn it off that seems to be the highest risk of flame UP where the fire gets out of control and burns too hot and risks triggering the safety cutoff. It's scary when that happens- loud, hot (laser thermometer shows 550 degrees and higher before I intervene), seems like the boat will catch on fire (but we know it will cut off before that happens). My theory is that this happens when the fire is not burning cleanly and allows unburnt fuel in the pot that eventually catches all at once. Anyone got a different theory?

We get lots of carbon in the pot when messing with trying to adjust the flame up and down and lots of soot when the flame ups happen. Keeping it the sweet spot prevents both carbon buildup and soot.

Using my laser thermometer and aiming at the top of the unit close to the flue I get readings of 280 to 300 degrees farenheit as the sweet spot- 280 equates to "medium low" and 300 equates to "medium" and I've given up trying to get it lower or higher as it's just not worth the consequences.

Based on the above I welcome any tips!

[starminx]

hey there, am a liveaboard since 2009, installed a sigmar heater, deck full of soot, frequent cleaning of heater. Impressed by the Refleks performance, installed the Reflks heater. Much better as long as the regulator is set at half or higher. Soot build up when set on low. Encountered a liveaboard in Norway who had installed a soot free heater called Norskblueflamme. No soot what so ever. Couldn't believe it. Since then installed the Norskblueflamme . No soot on the deck, reduced consumption and no more cleaning of the heater. It has been running 24 on 7 all winter . Suggest you have a look at it.

[Goodxcharly]

I would probably sell it and buy a diesel forced air. They burn hot and clean. No diesel smell.
I think the Cadillac of forced air is Wallas though there are many brands to choose from.

[toddster8]

I've been running a Dickinson Newport diesel heater for two months now. It REALLY improves the habitability of the boat. No more condensation! The only time I got sooting was the first day, when I followed the printed directions too literally and didn't use the "optional" draft fan. It ALWAYS needs to run. I did install the barometric damper and the flame stays steady, even in 45 knot gusts. Air intake is through two dorade vents.

I lived with wood-stove heat for most of my life, so start-up and (very minimal) tending doesn't bother me. Once it's set up, sometimes it runs for a week without touching again.

The main problem I have with it is that it is too hot for a 42-foot boat. I suspect there may be some problem with the oil regulator. The only settings I ever use it on are "1" (the lowest setting) or maybe "1.1" (lift out of the detent and turn the smallest possible fraction of a turn, which doubles the flame) when temperatures are below freezing. It also uses about twice as much fuel as the manual suggests that it should.

Instead of adjusting the oil valve, I find that I regulate the temperature by opening hatches and wasting most of the heat.

[toddster8]

Well thanks for this thread. Instead of enjoying a peaceful morning in the anchorage, I fooled around with the Dickinson heater and made a bit mess. Bottom line is that my fuel flow WAS adjusted to more than twice the recommended flow at minimum setting. What I previously thought was the adjustment screw is actually just the set screw - it has to come all the way out to reveal the adjustment screw. I had to remove the entire fuse/adjustment assembly from the valve and view it under light (and reading glasses) to figure it out.

I suspect that the set screw was never tightened properly and allowed the adjustment screw to vibrate downward to its maximum setting, "Inferno." Properly adjusted, this is a much more credible "low" setting. I can even close the hatches on a rainy day!

So add, a small graduated cylinder (for measuring flow) and a 5/64 Allen wrench (for adjustment) to required kit.

There was also quite a lot of crusty carbon build-up to clean out of the pot and the burner pieces. Not as bad as the old diesel orchard heaters that we used to use, before diesel became way too expensive. But messier than shoveling ash out of a wood stove.

Well, off to find a fuel dock (because the stove emptied the tank, way too soon...). At least I can drop off the trash bag full of oily rags at the same time.

[CarinaPDX]

The diesel Newport will work just fine if installed and used correctly.

The taller the total (inside & out) chimney the stronger the draft. Moderate bends in the chimney (say 45°) are actually a good thing but 90° bends are bad. With a tall chimney the draft needs to be regulated down for the burner, which is the purpose of the barometric damper (not for backdrafting). The high natural draft is helpful in preventing backdrafting. The Newport should be mounted as low as is practicable - not high on the bulkhead - both for a long chimney and for better heat distribution.

Backdrafting is caused by a higher external pressure relative to interior cabin pressure. When this happens the exhaust in the chimney reverses into the burner and puts out the flame. But if the burner is hot enough then the diesel will continue to vaporize and then ignite explosively (flash point), sending soot everywhere (it is an awful mess that coats everything). This can happen when a companionway (or even hatch or portlight) is opened, and especially one on the back of the house or dodger (assuming wind from the bow). Think of the station wagon effect, where there is a lower pressure area directly behind the car. A good smoke cap is designed to prevent gusts from creating a back pressure, and a tall (total) chimney will help to offset it as well. Also, a fan on the burner air intake can increase the draft and prevent a backdraft (Dickinson sells them.) The ultimate protection is a balanced combustion system, where the heater intake comes down from a location close to the exhaust chimney, with an identical smoke head. Sigmar made their heaters with a 3" air intake to match the 3" chimney. In this case any change in external pressure affects both input and output equally and there is no backdraft. But I don't recall ever seeing a boat with two smoke heads close to one another; I certainly am not doing it. The fan uses very little power...

During operation a properly maintained heater should produce negligible soot. During startup one should always use about 1oz. of alcohol to preheat the burner, and as it burns low the carburetor is opened and the fuel ignited by the burning alcohol. Done properly this should create little smoke, and then only briefly.

It is recommended to add a thermal cutoff switch, available from Dickinson. I bought one and will be installing it one day...

I used my Sigmar bulkhead heater as the primary heat source while living aboard Carina during the winter in Sweden. I had to shut it down and clean the burner once, in the middle of winter, and again in the spring. It is normal for the heater to build up crud in the area where the diesel vaporizes, which calls for a predictable bit of maintenance (cleaning).

These heaters are a great alternative to the expensive and electricity-demanding Espar and Webasto forced air heaters. The forced air heaters also use a lot of storage space for the hot air hoses, at least on a small boat. With the advent of decent Chinese knockoffs for well under $200 this equation has changed for many. Still, they use electricity and take space for the air hoses. Your choice.

Greg

[Bowdrie]

Yeah, barometric dampers are for controlling/limiting excess draft.
Dickinson recommends that a windward port be left open to provide a bit of "pressurization", if you will, to prevent backdraft.
The original "Breidert" smoke head, (IMHO,) has proven to be superior to other styles.
Unfortunately, they ceased production long ago and the reproductions that I've found are not made in sizes smaller than 4".

[sealife2]

Newport heaters can work well but usually produce lots of soot problems. However there are ways to eliminate the soot and explosions
the problems are usually caused by back drafting as previously stated. It is caused by a difference in pressure between the chimney top and the combustion air If taken from inside the boat .
For instance when sailing hard into the wind the main may produce a down draft onto the exhaust cap or at the dock when there is a wind shift that decreases cabin pressure sucking the exhaust down through the heater and out the intake filling the cabin with soot and or as chotu mentioned causes the small explosions inside heater that blows soot into cabin.
with. lots of smoke billowing from the cabin and the usual screams of "the boats on fire" I tried using cabin air on many boats for about 25 years as everyone does and had the same results, soot soot and more soot either in my boat or showering neighbours with soot.

the simple solution is called balanced draft and accomplished by having the combustion air enter very near the exhaust. Faball and Sigmar heaters are almost identical to newport and used this system for years with great success and now the newer dickensen newport diesel heaters have copied this and are equipped with a 3" spigot under the burner to attach an intake air hose. To work this system takes intake air from next to the exhaust through a low profile deck vent. in my experience that cures the soot problem permanently. no more back drafting no more soot as in zero soot after 5 years and 10000 hrs use with occasional 50 knots gusts. Here in BC, newports and chesapeakes were the most likely heater to be thrown over the side after ruining the interior of boats. if You aren't going to use a balanced draft setup id say get rid of the heater right now and save yourself and your neighbours an incredible amount of irritation. i will say i hated those heaters with a passion until i read and followed the Sigmar balanced draft installation recommendations . i wouldn't be with out a Newport , Faball or Sigmar heater now, would not leave on a cruise without it.

BTW... attach a perforated aluminum plate on top of a newport and you can bake meals or keep a kettle of water simmering all winter while enjoying the fireplace view

[Chotu]

The Lofoten was wonderful for cooking and that slow simmering kettle.

See the black plate on top?

Removes like an old wood fired cook stove.

[sealife2]

in my earlier post i missed a couple of things discovered with these heaters and a multitude of failures.( lessons)
1- i installed heater diesel header tanks on several new boats thinking to avoid the fuel pump, they work well till overfilled which inevitably happens in my world , its nasty having fuel running either over the cabin top/teak decks or inside the engine room and across the harbour. filling the tanks every few days is also not the way of the sloth
2-in my opinion the electric fuel pump is the least trouble in long term operation, and it does click less if flexibly mounted and is super reliable like 10 or 20 year life for the low pressure walbro type. any old electric fuel pump will Not work. pump pressure needs to be very low or it overcomes the float in the metering valve flooding the heater .
fuel pickup needs to be significantly above the engine pick up and have its own fuel filter. avoids running the main fuel tank below the engine pickup... in some difficult situation
3- the metering valve has a float in it like a carburetor, over many years like 20 yrs that float can get saturated making the metering erratic / floods the heater with fuel
4- an overhead cabin over heat sensor attached to the alarm system is a good thing for people like me and required by some insurance companies
5- a few hooks near heater to dry gloves towels socks etc are wonderful in wet cold weather
6- we use our heater when sailing, it works fine with no extended deck stack just the cap right on the deck fitting as long as its the balanced draft set up, not having 3'of stack above deck is a big plus, and not likely to get torn off by flailing sheets etc suits me well, don't have to remove anything to sail .

7 an unbalanced draft and an engine room exhaust fan when combined can have spectacular consequences. luckily i just witnesses this one. Picture this, a brand new 40' sailboat being commissioned at the dock for a very particular new owner goes to pick something up at the store boat all closed up white upholstery with ash panelling a very classy interior! The engine room exhaust fan was left on by mistake causing the dickensen diesel heater to run backwards as in combustion air coming in through the exhaust stack and soot exhaust etc going out through the bottom of the heater into the cabin. it took an hour for the owner to return, i have never heard such screaming and foul language when he opened the hatch his boat was entirely black inside, everything covered in a thick layer of soot. not sure that white boat interior or owner ever recovered.




8 starting the heater ... have tried many different start up procedures, barbecue lighter ,propane torch and alcohol preheat the sloth version has won hands down. we let some oil run in for a minute or two then throw in a tiny piece of lit toilet paper, fire starts every time. after loosing my facial hair using the alcohol preheat method on a not quite cold enough restart i gave that method up.

i got 5 years out of the sigmar before vacuuming out the burnt paper carbon in the bottom of the burner it didn't need to be cleaned i was just curious about carbon buildup.
it only took me 25 years to figure this heater thing out.... after id taken a number of webastos and espars to the dump and fighting with older dickensen style heaters with unbalanced draft .
I just dont have the patience for the regular electronic flameouts with those complicated fan forced heaters, head down in the lazarette trouble shooting the latest greatest technologically superior heater as the snow or rain drifts down my neck. its taken a long time and a lot of personal growth to reach this trinketry averse state, recognizing now that i wont live long enough to experience all possible boating misadventures.
ill just have to be content sailing or lounging in a warm dry cabin watching the fire flicker, drinking and tell tall tales as the wind howls and the snow swirls by
Enough rambling im sure there is another lesson to be learned
Chotu what have you got for us today?