Bad boat yard experience - a lesson learned.

[Bay Breeze]

We were willing to write off our bad experience with this boat yard until we found such unsatisfactory bottom paint performance after only five months. Here’s our experience, which may be isolated since most reviews of this yard are excellent, but, we are very disappointed in our outcome.

We selected Miller Marine in Southport (Panama City) Florida, based on a good recommendation from a friend who lives at the St. Andrews Marina. Though he had not had any work done, he had heard Miller Marine was the best. So we scheduled a January 2017 haul out and made the three day trip over from near St. Marks on an enjoyable cruise.

Prior to arrival, we emailed the list of work and arranged for a haul and block. Everything appeared fine, though this yard did not seem to cater to sailboats, being more oriented to commercial and sport fisher craft. Communication was somewhat frustrating with the yard manager. He never seemed to have enough time to discuss our work list and remarked on how unnecessary, difficult, or expensive our requests were. However, Mike Miller and the office staff were courteous and especially attentive to billing records. They completed the various tasks we had on our list, including a great buff and wax job by a subcontractor.

Most work seems to be done by subs.

First, we had asked to have the boat bottom painted and arrange for a surveyor to check the moisture of our hull. If we had moisture problems, we would dry it out and consider an epoxy barrier coat. But before they arranged for a surveyor, the bottom was painted, making checking moisture irrelevant - why get an epoxy barrier after a new bottom paint job?

Here are photos of the hull showing flaking bottom paint after only 5 months. We suspect that there was either no or insufficient sanding and the hull might have been wet when painted. We have typically hauled every three to four years for anti-fouling paint and never had this poor adhesion with Trinidad 75.

Second, since Miller had built large custom sport fishing yachts we thought their that their carpenters would be able to do quality boat cabinet work. So we asked for modification of an interior cowling cabinet covering our engine. The carpenter did a very nice job, but because the teak he used warped, it cracked and broke. Well, it’s wood, so we repaired the broken teak ourselves, and wrote off the $700 spent on his work.

Third and most importantly, the yard removed our 2 rudders and rudder cheeks so they could be sandblasted and clear powder coated. We wanted this done because the stainless steel rudder cheeks presented flaking paint and some rust stains. It seemed too difficult for the yard to find a local Panama City sub for the blasting and powder coating. So we took the parts to have our Tallahassee sources perform the work. The yard reinstalled the cheeks on the gudgeons and reattached the bronze rudder yokes and rudders. Each yoke is attached to the rudder cheek with six bolts on each side of the cheek (12 bolts per rudder).

We began our annual 3 month cruise to the Florida Keys in early March.

In late March, on a rough crossing in the Gulf from the Panhandle to Boca Grande, an Edson bronze rudder yoke broke. Six 1/4” contiguous bolts and lock washers on one side of the starboard yoke were gone. This placed excessive stress and caused the failure of the starboard rudder yoke, resulting in the loss of the use of this rudder. The remaining rudder (port) was now the only working rudder and under extreme stress. It cracked at the cheek and the aluminum core bent 5 degrees in heavy, breaking, crossing seas in the Boca Grande channel. No marine service provider we asked could explain how six bolts, with lock washers, could work their way out while all of the other bolts were still in place and tight.

When we asked about the failure of the bolts, all on one side of one of the yokes, Miller Marine claimed all of the bolts were installed properly. All they could do was express sympathy for our problem. We were willing to write it off as “stuff happens and it’s a boat” until we found the shoddy work and flaking bottom paint after less than four months and 1,000 NM. The bottom paint continues to flake off.

So the outcome of the experience was a haul out and mechanic along with four days transient slip at Gasparilla Marine ($1,600), new bronze rudder yoke from Edson ($670), rudder repair by Backcountry Boat Works, Islamorada ($1,700), haul to install repaired rudders and a month dockage at Marathon Marina ($1,800), install by Keys Rigging and night in a hotel due to haul out ($500), 1 gallon of Trinidad 75 at West Marine ($359) to touch up the flaking bottom paint, and, last but not least, four weeks lost cruising time ($-priceless). Original bill at Miller Marine: ~ $7,000.

We have had excellent experiences with various yards, including Fisherman’s in Freeport, Snead Island in Bradenton, Marathon Marina and Boat Yard and Marathon Marina and RV Park. But we have also been very disappointed in Dockside in Carrabelle and especially with Miller Marine in Southport, FL. We really appreciate the help and attention of Gasparilla Marine in Placida in getting us going again after the rudder failure.

We are not pursuing any recourse with Miller Marine, but suggest anyone using the yard be very attentive to check carefully the thoroughness and quality of their workmanship.

[Frankly]

If you have had a string of good experiences with boat yards consider yourself lucky (sure to get a lot of grief on that). My experiences over 50 years have all been bad on the occasions when I had to farm out any work other than hauling.

Not sure what happened with your bottom paint but I typically get 3 or 4 years out of hard epoxy paints (Trinidad earlier and Seahawk Tropikote more recently). As you suspect probably bad prep.

Miller Marine enjoys a good reputation around here, but as you observed cater more to high end big sportsfishermen. They also have a reputation for being very expensive.

Bay County Boatyard might be an alternative (Robert Jones is a decent and honest guy), but most of my experiences are just hauling and pressure cleaning. At age 75 my first non DIY bottom job is on the horizon.

There is a yard up Scipio Creek in Apalach but no experience or other opinions.

Sorry for your cruise going south but probably a good idea to check after any work is done by anybody anywhere. In the words of a previous US Chief "trust but verify".

[BandB]

Sorry for your experience.

A few questions or comments to make. First, you mentioned four yards you'd had good experiences with and it makes me ask why you didn't return to one of them? Seems like there's almost no reward in providing good work if loyalty doesn't bring customers back.

Second, if sailboats don't appear to be much of a part of a yard's business and I had a choice, then I'd find someone else.

Perhaps next time you hire the surveyor or a captain yourself to keep an eye on the boat throughout the process. At the very least you'd have some explanations now as to the application of the paint and as to whether the bolts were properly tightened. I would definitely want to personally or have someone on my behalf check things out before returning a boat to the water.

[Bay Breeze]

We are in a difficult place for marine services - the closest, Dockside in Carrabelle was terrible. Indeed, we do repeat business with the other yards - especially in Marathon. We wanted to find a yard that was closer than 10 days for simple bottom job and a few details.

My mistake was trusting this yard and not following up. Should have suspected that they wouldn't have time to do the work if they didn't have time to discuss our projects. Won't happen again.

[zeehag]

best yard work is done when you are present for all work being done. leave at your own risk. this is the case everywhere

[Elie]

Boatyards sometime do not assign good expertise to the job at hand but rather assign what they have avalable at that moment. That is what it is much less frustrating to try learning doeing the job yourself, even if it implies mistakes, and expenses.
Once a pseudo expert mechanic of a marina was explaining in great scarry details that replacing the timing belt of my diesel engine(perkins Prima) was a very delicate and complicated job(one mistake and the engine is dead!), and it would take at least 7 hours including 1 hour of studying the mechanic book. I started
to believe that is was as complicated as brain surgery!.Since he was not ready to proceed, and I had to wait at an expensive dock for 2 days, I tried to start the simple process of dismantling obvious and easy things to spare some expensive and busy expert time. In less then one hour including detail study of the procedure in the shop manual, I end up with the belt in my hand. I continued, finished the job and reassembled everything . Total time for the job: in less then 3 hours, working slowly. Everything was perfect!... So I avoid like the plague the 'experts' and try to learn and be self suffisant. Much less frustration and expenses... And gain of assurance!

[alansmith]

Yup, u got stung... I am doing a complete restoration of my 29 footer. I am there almost 7 days a week for several months. Know everybody by name and personality. It is tough work. These guys work hard and must produce. I am not excusing shoddy work. You already know what went wrong. Wrong type of yard for your sailboat. Peak season with big stress for the yard manager. He puts guys on a job that might be doing 3-6 other boats the same day. It is all done in stages. Grind off the Shirley.. fairing compound... grind it smooth...Interlux epoxy sealer... 3-4 coats... bottom paint. I have learned how to do it all myself. It ain't fun. I can't afford 100 dollars an hour. I feel your pain.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by BandB

Sorry for your experience.

A few questions or comments to make. First, you mentioned four yards you'd had good experiences with and it makes me ask why you didn't return to one of them? Seems like there's almost no reward in providing good work if loyalty doesn't bring customers back.

Second, if sailboats don't appear to be much of a part of a yard's business and I had a choice, then I'd find someone else.

Perhaps next time you hire the surveyor or a captain yourself to keep an eye on the boat throughout the process. At the very least you'd have some explanations now as to the application of the paint and as to whether the bolts were properly tightened. I would definitely want to personally or have someone on my behalf check things out before returning a boat to the water.

You and others make some good points, but I am having a hard time with this "sailboat/sport fisherman theory. Painting and rudder-work is basic stuff. A hull is a hull. I can't see much difference between a sailboat and a commercial boat. A rudder is a rudder, bolts are bolts. Paint is paint. I see no justification here.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

You and others make some good points, but I am having a hard time with this "sailboat/sport fisherman theory. Painting and rudder-work is basic stuff. A hull is a hull. I can't see much difference between a sailboat and a commercial boat. A rudder is a rudder, bolts are bolts. Paint is paint. I see no justification here.

Funny thing....I agree that there SHOULD be no difference, but by far the worst haul out I ever had was a similar circumstance. A highly rated, very expensive yard that concentrated on sportsfishermen. I had to be gone for a few days to tend to an aging parent. They almost launched in my absence, but fortunately I got there in time to find a very large and obvious mistake which I made them correct. My boat, a 45 foot cat, sat right in front of the office the whole time, and literally everyone in the yard had to walk by it, multiple times per day. I spotted the mistake from fifty yards off, go figure. Perhaps owners of sportfishers are used to paying through the nose and aren't very observant, but I found the situation incomprehensible. Oh, by the way, they had told me they could haul a boat with my beam - I had paced off their travel lift slip and said I doubted it - and when, in the end, they couldn't they hired a huge highway crane ( $6000) to do the lift and launch! It was an insurance job, so maybe that explains something. I would never go back.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

You and others make some good points, but I am having a hard time with this "sailboat/sport fisherman theory. Painting and rudder-work is basic stuff. A hull is a hull. I can't see much difference between a sailboat and a commercial boat. A rudder is a rudder, bolts are bolts. Paint is paint. I see no justification here.

Not a justification. However, there are areas of specialty and rudders of sailboats are generally much different than rudders of powerboats, especially sport fishing boats. No difference in the painting. Perhaps an intentional or unintentional lower priority assigned to the work on a sailboat of a non-regular customer.

When a yard is busy, they may well put the priority of some boats over others and their more experienced workers go to the priority work while less experienced and less supervision to the lower priority.

Now I think having no one watching and going to a yard one hadn't been to before are greater issues.

[KP44]

Originally Posted by zeehag

best yard work is done when you are present for all work being done. leave at your own risk. this is the case everywhere

We all live and learn. Usually the busiest contractor is the more trustworthy. if someone "needs" the work, there is almost always a reason he/she needs the work.
My first experience was bottom paint. I was hauled out and had replaced a through-hull and seacock. I didn't have time to stay and paint the bottom so I hired a yard hand who seemed to appreciate the work. I had sanded and prepped the bottom and wanted 2 coats. I left him 3 gallons of Trinidad and the boat needs a gallon and a quart for a full coat.
When I returned, all the paint was gone and there was one very light coat on the hull with a few spots showing where there was no new paint. The hired person said it took all 3 gallons to paint one coat.
Not hard to figure he stole 2 gallons of expensive bottom paint and did one very quick coat. Live and learn. I will never again leave while there is painting being done. (grin)

[tomrealest]

Originally Posted by zeehag

best yard work is done when you are present for all work being done. leave at your own risk. this is the case everywhere

This is my Experience. Sometimes I have found the management is not watching the help, so you're going to be disappointed. If my boat is in a yard, I'm watching everything.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by zeehag

best yard work is done when you are present for all work being done. leave at your own risk. this is the case everywhere

+1
Or do it yourself.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by BandB

Not a justification. However, there are areas of specialty and rudders of sailboats are generally much different than rudders of powerboats, especially sport fishing boats. No difference in the painting. Perhaps an intentional or unintentional lower priority assigned to the work on a sailboat of a non-regular customer.

When a yard is busy, they may well put the priority of some boats over others and their more experienced workers go to the priority work while less experienced and less supervision to the lower priority.

Now I think having no one watching and going to a yard one hadn't been to before are greater issues.

When I say justifycation I am referring to the yard. The OP's problem with their rudder appears to be bolts that were improperly torqued. Or not torqued at all. Has nothing to do with sailboat, sportfisherman, commercial. Bottom line, just poor workmanship/supervision/management. q

[gbmacca]

ALWAYS BE PRESENT IN A SHIPYARD!!!

Before shipping my Chris Craft 55' Constellation back to Perth Australia from Seattle, had arranged with a guy to repaint hull, but as he got sidetracked, got the yard to do it.

I had, from previous yard experience, told him explicitly, not to let the yard do any work as one of our hours is usually ten of theirs!

The boat arrived in Perth to find they hadn't painted, 'too cold', and the sanding job they had done was no better than using a steel wool Brillo pad!

The hours charged, 5 days, 4 guys at $30/hour = 160 hours = $4800!!

A mate and I doing two sands with rough and fine --- did both sides in less than 12 hours!

I was 65 at the time.

If you get work done, ask for a minute report on actual hours spent and - if you have a basic knowledge of what is being done - go over it with the yard and get them to explain on a daily basis - why and what they have done.

Sadly, a lot of yards think that we all we boat owners have money and no idea of the time taken to do a job!

Take control!

Cheers

Graeme McLennan

Perth Australia