What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

[cat man do]

And just in case you didn't see it on the improvised weapons thread.......


copy of a post on that other forum that may make the gun toters second think the consequences


I have always wondered if the people advocating bringing fire arms when cruising knows of the consequences if caught.

Jack shares his experience in this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack frost
I have seen boats waiting for me and as I get close they pass very close to my bow, only to drop the fishing nets. This is because they think they have taken my good luck. I have seen small fast boats go so close to my bow I lost sight of them, they wear hoods on their heads, but thats to protect them from the sun.
.........
I have had the life frightened out of me by big fishing boats that come up on my stern so fast with more that 15 men on board only to wave and pass on by.

What would happen to someone who brought a firearm into Thailand on his cruiser, got frightened by the big fishing boat that came up by the stern and fired, killing one of the 15 men that only wanted to wave as they passed?

I asked my lawyer that question when this thread was young... Minimum jail sentence for murder or man slaughter is 3 years in Thailand. Note that this is minimum and certainly does NOT apply to a farang killing an innocent fisherman who just wanted to wave at him. Illegally bringing in a gun into Thailand would add another year or so to the jail sentence.

So how long? The lawyer thought for a while and said, He'll probably be out after 5-6 years. Not less, possibly more. Bribing? No, not for murder or man slaugher.

If this happens when you're 44, then you'll be out again just in time for your 50th birthday... But you could miss that birthday too.

In Asia, my recommendation would be;
Relax guys - They don't want to kill you, they just want your things, OK?

Mikey

this starts in 2004 Dealing with pirates - Boat Design Forums

Dave

PS. Bloody hell, I am amazed at how many thread's there are about shooting the **** out of everything.

Look at the bottom of the page and there is "Would you shoot" and at the bottom of that page..................

[dana-tenacity]

Let's start a sh*t storm. I think this poll only reflects the preponderance of Americans on this forum. In nearly 20 years as a full time cruiser my observation was that it was the US boats that carried guns ( OK and the mega yachts, but they aren't reaally cruisers).

[Boracay]

To me the issue is not carrying a gun. After all who would not want to be able to protect themselves and their family/friends?
The issue is that guns themselves create problems, much as some would like to quote statistics showing that this is not so.
The problems would include:-
1) Becoming an instant target (guns are highly desired by criminals).
2) Problems with authorities (Government officials seem to dislike guns intensly).
3) The need for proper ongoing training and practice (very difficult to do on a cruising yacht).
4) The possibility of making a mistake. During a normal day there are times when I am not thinking clearly, and I am sure most of us are the same. A mistake with a gun is not normally one you can apologise for. Gun ownership puts the resposibility of behaving correctly on the other party, and they are just as liable to make a mistake as anyone else.
5) I would not normally associate with gun owners. As they are a minory in most communities one must assume that gun ownership brings with it some degree of social alienation.
6) The possiblilty that harm might occur to family/friend simply because the gun is there. (children like to play with guns, another party may pick up the gun in anger etc.).
7) Having a gun when depressed is not healthy. My understanding is that the person most likely to be killed by a gun is the owner.
8) A gun can instantly make a difficult situation far worse, sometimes to the point where it cannot be resolved without violence.
Incidents that occur with guns are mostly not reported while pirate attacks always make the headlines.
Maybe we need a thread where those times where a gun has caused a problem are reported.

[unbusted67]

I am an American and it discgraces me to hear my countrymen talk like this. You are Americans, take the high road. Use your minds and hearts not you adrenal gland.
Think it through. The ocean is huge, if you want to avoid violent people there is really no better place. If you want avoid people period, there is no better place.
If you are ever on a sailboat and are being pursued by people that want to take your boat, your belongings, or your life then that is exactly what they are going to do because chances are you made some choices a few hundred miles back that put you in harms way not because you didn't bring your gun.
Do you think they would be chasing you in a sailboat or maybe they would have a canoe? Do you think there would be one of them? Do you think they wouldn't have shotguns or whatever you decided to arm yourself with?
For a country so hellbent on independance we seem awfully dependant on firearms for our national identity.
Wake up.

[ssullivan]

I've lived in Boston though. You definitely could use one there. (more jokes - sorry couldn't resist!)

[will n]

I have browsed through this topic on and off for sometime. That said. The number one problem, as well as solution, with firearms of any kind is RESPONSIBILITY. If you see a boat coming close to your bow and start shooting, you do not have what it takes to own or keep a firearm on board. If you do have an emergency and cannot get the clip inserted correctly, you do not have what it takes to own a firearm. If your child gets ahold of that gun, you are not a responsible gun owner and don't have what it takes to own a firearm.

When you first begin to learn how to drive, you take your time, your parents teach to you basics and the governments puts you through a series of tests to affirm that you can handle the responsibilities of doing so.

A gun does not offer a single bit of protection, nor does is offer any danger. It is when that gun is placed into the hands of a human being that things happen. You cannot blame guns or gun manufacturers for the mistakes of a human being.

When I leave for my circumnavigation I don't know if I will take a gun with me or not, and the sole reason for that is because of the problem with officials. I do not want to have problems or legal trouble because I offend or illegally bring in weopons when I should not have. At the same time if someone were to board my boat in an act of violence, I want to be able to protect my family.

This may be a reiteration of something that was already said, but they are my feelings.

I'll leave you with this saying that you have probably seen on T-shirts before:

"Guns don't kill people, I do."

[cat man do]

I wonder if people would be so willing to start shooting if the bullets cost $1000 each.

I'd reckon they'd put a bit more thought into it before pulling the trigger.

Dave

[unbusted67]

I wonder if people would be so willing to start sailing if boats cost $100,000 each...Oh wait never mind.

[Tnflakbait]

Originally Posted by dana-tenacity

Let's start a sh*t storm. I think this poll only reflects the preponderance of Americans on this forum. In nearly 20 years as a full time cruiser my observation was that it was the US boats that carried guns ( OK and the mega yachts, but they aren't reaally cruisers).

Only boat I ran into with firearms in the so. Pac was a British boat. Maybe thats not to far off. But I agree us Americans like our guns! I have a gun onboard right now just for shooting at stuff out in the middle of the ocean. (not animals) But when I leave US waters it will not come along!

[GordMay]

In my experience, many prospective & newbie cruisers advocate carrying firearms, whereas most experienced cruisers don’t (or no longer) actually carry them aboard.

As I noted in “Firearms Regulations by Country” < http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ntry-1641.html >
“... Every country you visit on your cruise will be less tolerant of guns than is the USA. All will require you to declare them upon entry, and some will require you to turn them over to the authorities while you are in the country. Some even require you to account for every round of ammunition. Some countries require you to clear in and out of customs at each port of call. That means you are constantly turning in and picking up your guns.
Some countries allow you to keep a gun on board, if you have a secure gun locker that customs can seal with tape. I cannot define "secure gun locker...

What you can expect by Country:
I’ve attempted to provide a representative list, sampling some of the many Countries a cruiser might wish to visit. This list is, of course, incomplete..."

[Jentine]

Having a gun on board may, sometimes, be a good idea. I have been cruising to many ports, but the only time my vessel has been violated by outsiders has been on Martha's Vinyard. The first time, we were tied to the fuel dock in Menemsha and the second, we were at the quay in Oak Bluffs. Neither time was anything damaged or stolen that could not be repaired or replaced. The real problem in the continuance on amoral morons propegating and leaving the world a worse place. Perhaps it would have served the world better if those two idiots were put out of their misery (and everyone else's) before they do some real damage.

[Benny]

Well this is quite a thread and some submissions real eye openers as to what some ordinary folks perceive as situations where deadly force can be used without hesitation. I ask those that are in that category - have you actually ever face to face shot another human being? Could you really do it? If you are not prepared to actually kill someone - then don't carry guns on board for self defence. I can't think of many situations where a gun would be needed as a deterent on a boat except to ward off a thief - and he might have a gun or use yours on you. Pirates, thieves and others intent on malice usually have a pretense to gaining access to your boat and don't announce their intentions from afar. It is usually too late for you to respond effectively to those threats with a firearm and may as stated by others escalate the situation to the point where you are the one being shot - they are usually ready for action where you may be slower to understand that their presence is a threat instead of an emergency or other percieved benign situation.

I own several firearms and am well trained in their use however, I would not consider keeping one on board unless I lived on my boat but they would still be stowed safely and I could probably not get one ready quickly enough to be of use in an attack where the perpetrator would have the advantage. Sure I would want to make the b#asturd sweat if I could have the drop on him with a gun and turn him over to the police but the reality is that they are the experienced ones with violence - not most of us and it would be dangerous to adopt an invincible attitude because of having guns on board.

I hope I never run into the situation of a life or death altercation on board my boat and the only reason I could think that someone would try that is if they wanted to rob me and things went bad. I say give them any property they want and make an insurance claim but if necessary to defend myself or my family - they may kill me but I won't give up without a fight and I'll use any knife, winch handle, tool or whatever is at hand as a weapon.

[Trim50]

I am on the fence with this one.

I know a handfull of sailors presently circumnavigating that carry firarms and check them in at "most" major ports. My understanding is that a shotgun does not cause too much trouble as long as you have papers and a trigger lock.

On the otherhand, it seems like a royal pain in the bung for something that you hope to never use.

[WHIZBANG]

A few observations.
"Just cooperate and you won't get hurt" is deeply flawed thinking. You are attributing rational behavior to armed attackers. Desperate people do irrational things. I worked with a guy in an all-night gas station who gave up the cash and even opened the safe. They shot him in the armpit and he bled to death on the floor next to the safe. We found him still lying on his stomach in his cooperative position.

On television when you point a gun at someone, they stop and obey your instructions. Having been through numerous armed holdups and two fullblown gunfights I can assure you that people almost never do what you tell them when you point a gun at them. They freakout and rush you, or flee, or start shooting, or pull wildly on a door that should be pushed. Its highly disorganized and unpredictable. If you picture yourself pointing a shotgun at a couple of thieves on your deck and saying "get off my boat," you better be ready for chaos. And if you don't shoot them as they rush you, they'll soon have the gun. Mexican standoffs are stressful beyond belief and it is real easy to make a fatal error. If you shoot the wrong person for the wrong reason in a foreign country you are dogmeat, and their jails don't have cable, weightbenches and a law library!

It seems that most countries will not allow you to have immediate access to your loaded weapon while at anchor, nor can you carry a concealed pistol while on shore. As scary as pirates are, I think the vast majority [95%] of situations where a gun would help are going to be regular criminal activity ie. burglary, theft, assault pursesnatch, etc. If you will not have access to the gun 95% of the time its needed, it seems to me that the relentless Customs hassles are just not worth it.

I would be very content to have my shotgun in my closet and my Walther in my waistband for those rare occasions I need them, but the fact is, no country is going to allow this. I will therefore be selling my weapons before I set sail and avoiding all areas with ongoing pirate activity.

[hellosailor]

Don't worry, Whizbang. You can always glass in a couple of Claymore mines in the stern quarters, and then just swear your propane locker blew when those bad men started shooting at you.

Kinda like Dorothy in Oz...just click your heels three times and send someone to Kansas.<G>