TERRORISM THREAT IN AMERICAN PORTS?

[seagypsywoman]

A while ago I posted this on another thread and it started an interesting discussion:

"Bush and the Jones Act
In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff temporarily waived the Jones Act upon the instruction of President George W. Bush on September 2, 2005. [1]

And here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jones_Act_(sailor_rights)

I wonder if it's been re-instated."

Today, I see on Yahoo news, this item:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/2006..._ports_security

No wonder that Bush didn't re-instate the Jones Act. He's been selling the American ports

By the way, the Jones Act was created specifically to protect American shipping, American ports and American sailors.

[jimini]

I want to be perfectly clear on this - I believe that the government officials should take a hunting trip with our VP and also invite Mr. Bush along...

Frankly I'm sick of all this s**t with our gov'rmt. officials and the things they get away with... We're being sold down the tubes with the likes of people who can't get enough money for themselves... and we as Americans put up with the stuff because we feel we can't do anything about it....Government Control? You bet. Fight City Hall? You bet. If we FINALLY, with a common people's courtroom, try these CEO's; Government Officials; and the like who are ripping the American people apart and make EXAMPLES of them - by hanging or even tar and feathering for less crimes in a city public square - People would think before stealing from us...

Things will change - the "innocent killings" - drug selling - rapes - all the major crimes when we take back our court rooms and try the lawyers who side with the criminals...The criminals screw up again the lawyers go back to jail with them... Take the TV's & the perts that criminals have in their cells and feed them bread and water - no entertainment - no nothing - lock them up and NEVER let them out of their cells for anything - get sick - tough. Get in a fight with your cellmate - tough. Teeth hurt - tough. bored in your cell - tough. Want an education - tough. No drugs smuggled in or out... Dirty Cops get the "death sentence" asap in the courtyard of the prision with all news crew recording... Once in prision, time done, criminal gets out - one more crime act - death. period..

[2divers]

Ok, Bush is not selling off our ports any more than I am buying or selling bridges in Brooklyn.

For those people who don't know check out National Public Radio. NPR did a special this morning on what is 'being sold' and where security is handled... You'all been sold a bill of goods by the spin doctors!!!!! Learn to Check Your Facts!

Lets start at the Port of NY.... It's at both NJ and NY within view of the twin towers site. It's owned by NY and NJ (states), end of story, they have not sold it!

Each pier is run by a international company who specializes in the loading and unloading and paperwork for the ships that come into and out of that pier. What is being 'SOLD' is the right to manage a pier or piers at a port.

Security is not going to change... Here's why. First, the Coasties get their stab at inspecting anything they want and get to view all the cargo manifests. Second, Customs get their shot. Those are both US GOVERNMENT AGENCIES!!!!!! Both work beyond the control of any peir or for that matter port operator.

Lastly we have the famous American longshoremen and thier Union and the Mob. Do you really think that any of those groups are going to let someone sneak through illegally with bio, chemical or nuclear material. They are Americans and more fiercely proud people I don't know. Second it would be bad for 'business' to let said items through since it would hinder future 'business' in a serious way.

So lets see, you are going to try and prevent a foreign company from a country that happens to be Arab from trying to push paperwork in our country because of your prejudice and bigotry?

Learn from the past.

Keep your friends close and those who may be enemies closer. Them working in our ports works both ways. Think of all the cover possibilites the governament will have available.

[CaptainK]

Well 2divers.

You're right about the Longshoremen and the Union, and especially the Mafia. I agree with you on that point of view. And I too also agree with how they want business to be kept business.

Another thing that I want to state here. I'm not prejudiced or a bigot. But some people has developed a distrust of people from the Middle East, due to 9-11. I'm distrustful of those people. I fought against some them during the first Gulf War. They have to earn my trust!!

Yes, the UAE are only managing the ports. But, I believe that the media might have taken this bit of news out of context.

[BC Mike]

2divers, thanks for enlightening the masses. As I said on another thread it will be discussed on CNBC telly Thursday morning. There is a lot of histeria and cheap shots comming from some camps these days. Is fort Worth near Corpus Christi, I may be going to CC later this year.
Yankees just bought the Hudson Bay Company, that's more Canadian than mapel syrup and Seargant Preston. HBC provided the clothing for the Canadian Olympic team, not that it did the hockey guys any good.
Mikhail

[2divers]

CaptianK, I can definitely understand that they have to earn the trust. I wholly and completely agree with your feelings due to your past experiences, and let me say Thank You for serving so I can speak my mind. I do my best to keep uphold that right by staying as well informed as possible.

BC Mike - Let me know when your a couple of weeks out. It's about 6 or 7 hour drive, but I need to head down that way to visit friends and get shrimp and seeing you would be a perfect excuse to get away for a weekend. The other good thing about Corpus is that it should have the cheapest fuel anywhere in the country since the refineries are right there. I think you will find the folks at the CC Sailing Center to be very freindly. Don't know much about the Steak there though.... Living here in North Texas in the old Cowtown has kind of ruined me on steak anywhere else. I'll see if I can find a good steak place in the vicinity, something where it will hang off two sides of the plate

[sneuman]

in what even the Homeland Sec. Dept. acknowledges is an "unprecedented" concession to UAE, the ports records will not be kept on U.S. soil, which means they will not be subject to U.S. legal jurisdiction:

from AP:
¶ Rep. Peter King of New York, the Republican chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee and a leading critic of the sale, said the conditions are evidence the Bush administration was concerned about security.
¶ "There is a very serious question as to why the records are not going to be maintained on American soil subject to American jurisdiction," King said.

I have been to Dubai and it I can tell you it is a cross-roads for all sorts of weird deals. No matter who does the inspecting or oversight at the ports, this deal represents a loss of control.

and, let's face it folks, if Clinton had proposed this he would have been hounded out of office as a traitor.

[CaptainK]

Oh yeah, sneuman.

Ole Clinton would have been drummed out of the oval office over that one.

But ole Bush is taking it like every other half-baked thing, that has come his way since he entered office!!

[jimini]

At present the BEST our Coast Guard and all the other agencies can inspect cargo is 5% TOPS! What about the other 95%???

I don't trust ANY foreign country coming into USA and controling anything that has to do with my way of life... It all comes down to money for the big boys who can't get enough...

As far as the loneshoreman - they may be handwriting on the wall too! NOTHING is guaranteed when business switches hands! NOTHING!! Look at the Teamers Union - Large, Strong, full unionized workers - NOT NOW... NO Business in the USA wants unions. period. The businesses will fight for each other to stop unions from forming.

To think everything is safe and rosy isn't the truth - The only people I would trust to protect me is my father and mother. HELL there are people out there that want to KILL all Americans whenever they find them...Don't you think they are in this country too? Waiting like another 9/11? They aren't going away just because you don't hear anything about them being on our soils. Americans need to control all the businesses in America not Greencarders... Think of the tax issues selling to an outside foreign company --Big Question - What is THEIR TAX BASE?

YOU need to wake up before you're smelling roses on your coffin!

MADE IN USA but controlled by foreigners??? NO way... we'll loose.

jimini®

[CaptainK]

Whoa!!

Hey Jimini. Hey I can relate with what you're saying in your last post. And I know how you feel about the above post.

I say let's bury this topic. Cause, it's heating things up in here, in sort of a bad way?

I already butted heads with one of the "newbies" yesterday. When I mentioned about the SUV's (gas guzzlers). And believe me when I say this. I truily understand this situation.

There are two major sides of this issue. And it's creating alot of anger in certain places, (this forum). And let's just let things ride for now?

[GordMay]

jimini
doesn’t ”...trust ANY foreign country coming into USA and controling anything that has to do with my way of life... It all comes down to money ...”
Where do you think your tax returns (money) are processed? Likely India.

2divers
cites the “Mob” as a third line of defense ... I’m speachless. You make it difficult to support your basic argument (which I’d like to).

Respectfully,
Gord

[mario f]

jimini once whispered in the wind:

To think everything is safe and rosy isn't the truth - The only people I would trust to protect me is my father and mother. HELL there are people out there that want to KILL all Americans whenever they find them...Don't you think they are in this country too? Waiting like another 9/11? They aren't going away just because you don't hear anything about them being on our soils. Americans need to control all the businesses in America not Greencarders...
jimini®

1. "Americans" include Canadians all the way down to Chileans and everything in between.
2. your bigotry, prejudice are supported by your ignorance(and I mean this in the nicest way possible)
3. It is the ideals you support with missinformation, bias, and prejudice that fuels hatred and wars. Not to mention the reception those who fly the USA flag (with pride)encounter when they sail to a foreign port.
4. I am one of those 'green carders' who fought for your country in a senseless war VietNam 1970-1972
5. It happened to be the Dutch navy and Mexican army who came to our aid in the Gulf Coast after Katrina (two weeks later we saw FEMA. Damn foreigners...
This nations gives you the freedom of expression, but education will go a long way in allowing you to enjoy the full benefits.

As a non-white, non American (though I was born in The Americas) I still respect you and if I were to meet you I would buy you a beer.


I vote this be kept a sailing forum, not a political/religious toilet bowl.

[Euro Cruiser]

Gosh, there's so much steam being vented here that most of the commentary lacks any significant pressure...

There was a thoughtful discussion on this topic last night on Jim Lehrer's News Hour. The director of the Port of Seattle pointed out that 2 of his 3 terminal operators are and have been owned by foreign companies for some years. One of his rhetorical questions was whether its reasonable to assume there is a significant difference (re: security) between an operator being a foreign company & the operator being owned by another country. If there is, I notice this has yet to be articulated by anyone. Another guest, a retired USCG CDR with port security background who now works for the Council of Foreign Relations, pointed out that on his list of the 10 biggest port security issues, this issue ranks perhaps #8 or #9 - it's not a totally unreasonable concern, but it's made so by all the other more glaring holes in our port security. As one example, he pointed out that for all the changes organizationally and in the nature and priority of their security responsibilities, the USCG has had no significant funding nor personnel increases in their port security ranks. He had quite a list.

For those who are bothered by foreign companies (and/or countries) owning both rights and facilities inside our borders, you're starting to smell the coffee. Our current account deficit is estimated now to be $900 Billion...and that's only for 2006! Is it a stretch to think that foreign buyers of our bonds won't increasingly want to also own property and operational rights, as well?

The previous night, one of Lehrer's regular commentators predicted that, once Congress finished throwing their snit and the facts were discussed openly, it would be discovered there was no 'there' there, the furor would die down, and the UAE-owned company would be allowed to operate these facilities. It's looking like that's what's now happening. Once again WRT to post-9/11 USA security issues, we've managed to fuss over the trivia and failed to take a painful look at the more meaningful security issues. Homeland Security should be renamed Airport Security.

BTW note the thoughtful editorial by David Ignatius in today's POST: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...022301412.html

Jack

[mario f]

jimini once whispered in the wind:

To think everything is safe and rosy isn't the truth - The only people I would trust to protect me is my father and mother. HELL there are people out there that want to KILL all Americans whenever they find them...Don't you think they are in this country too? Waiting like another 9/11? They aren't going away just because you don't hear anything about them being on our soils. Americans need to control all the businesses in America not Greencarders...
jimini®

1. "Americans" include Canadians all the way down to Chileans and everything in between.
2. your bigotry, prejudice are supported by your ignorance(and I mean this in the nicest way possible)
3. It is the ideals you support with missinformation, bias, and prejudice that fuels hatred and wars. Not to mention the reception those who fly the USA flag (with pride)encounter when they sail to a foreign port.
4. I am one of those 'green carders' who fought for your country in a senseless war VietNam 1970-1972
5. It happened to be the Dutch navy and Mexican army who came to our aid in the Gulf Coast after Katrina (two weeks later we saw FEMA. Damn foreigners...
This nations gives you the freedom of expression, but education will go a long way in allowing you to enjoy the full benefits.

As a non-white, non American (though I was born in The Americas) I still respect you and if I were to meet you I would buy you a beer.


I vote this be kept a sailing forum, not a political/religious toilet bowl.

[BC Mike]

The current US army is voluntary. A tractor buddies son is just leaving for duty, another tractor buddy has just returned from Iraq. Most of the older guys are X servicemen. I look forward to the day when most of the old guys are not X servicemen, as there were not conflicts to serve in. I may not live long enough.
There was a time when the US drafted landed immigrants. Green card holders, or as the US called them " Resident Aliens " These RAs could not vote, could not get government type jobs, could not get bonded, which prevented them form getting a variety of jobs, yet they were eligible for the draft after 6 months residense in the US.
Some were drafted and served, others like me moved on. President Carter later absolved us of our " sins " and granted pardons to all. All this revolved around the Viet Nam war. Many historians credit hippy power for stopping the war. I only write the above as a small piece of history, as US politics likes to raise its head so often.
Euro Cruiser has written best on the subject so far.
Michael