Rethinking attitudes towards fire suppression

[C420sailor]

Originally Posted by thinwater

A big fire starts in the engine bay, blocking the companionway. You are in the V-berth. The dinghy is lashed on the foredeck, blocking the hatch....


Not too different from the dive boat fire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Conception

Big fire? Stairs likely burned through or halfway there. Smoke is probably banked down to damn near the floor.

You really only have two options:

1) Get low and fight it like your life depends on it—EEBD would be huge here. Hopefully get a quick knockdown and then vent, staying on top of any rekindles until you can climb out.
2) Give up and die.

An ounce of prevention though...smoke detectors and unobstructed exits.

[iabmatos]

Hello everyone,

I have noticed little mention to the dangers of smoke inhalation, particularly the smoke from all those boat resins, oils, and other products.

Anyone able to add more info on that?

How effective is to have a mask ready with each fire extinguisher, to protect eyes and lungs?

Cheers

[bcboomer]

I'm thinking that the BlazeCut Automatic Fire System is a cheap solution for the engine compartment.

https://avrparts.com/products/blaze-...ression-system

Any comments from the experts?

[MikeHoncho]

You have taken some significant liberties in your opening arguments specifically the opposition of the fire service to fire sprinkler systems. Beyond that I would not bother with a CO or foam extinguisher. CO is not effective with reigniting situations of which anything burning on a boat would be significant . Foam extinguishers of any size you would have on a boat does not give the needed coverage needed and who’s going to be able to fight a flammable liquid fire inside of a boat without protection. I don’t have any input on Purple K agents but I do with dry chem. If you can’t get it out with 5lb ( pretty big for a boat) or a couple 2.5lbs.....you are not going to get it out due to the conditions you are in when applying them. You probably won’t enable to get close enough regardless unless in a very incipient phase. The key is getting it out quickly with something that will not allow it to reignite and have the ability to do it from several locations. 30 years professional fire service....

[MikeHoncho]

Originally Posted by iabmatos

Hello everyone,

I have noticed little mention to the dangers of smoke inhalation, particularly the smoke from all those boat resins, oils, and other products.

Anyone able to add more info on that?

How effective is to have a mask ready with each fire extinguisher, to protect eyes and lungs?

Cheers

Proper filters help but do not add O2 to the mix. If you need a mask then you’ll need O2 given the confined spaces of a boat. Heat is a equal challenge for these types of fire.

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by iabmatos

Hello everyone,

I have noticed little mention to the dangers of smoke inhalation, particularly the smoke from all those boat resins, oils, and other products.

Anyone able to add more info on that?

How effective is to have a mask ready with each fire extinguisher, to protect eyes and lungs?

Cheers

Carbon Monoxide is lethal, Superheated air is also not your friend, all the others stuff, plastics, oils, are not as bad. You just choke on it.
Firefighters concern themelves long term effects of repeated exposures to this stuff. But this thread is about one-offs.

[poiu]

A video showing how fast fire can spread. A seemingly spontaneous fire in an unoccupied boat :
https://youtu.be/l2xBYqtWcDs?t=431

[MikeHoncho]

Originally Posted by Russian007

all the others stuff, plastics, oils, are not as bad. You just choke on it.
.

not correct. hydrogen cyanide is a significant element of the combustion of plastics and hydrocarbons. Short term exposures (acute) to these products along with C0 and others are significantly more dangerous that long term (chronic). Its all about time/dose relationships.

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by MikeHoncho

not correct. hydrogen cyanide is a significant element of the combustion of plastics and hydrocarbons. Short term exposures (acute) to these products along with C0 and others are significantly more dangerous that long term (chronic). Its all about time/dose relationships.

That doesn't make sense. A once in a lifetime exposure to toxic smoke is worse than weekly exposure over 30 years to the same products? So the reason firefighters have higher rates of lung cancer is just that first breath of smoke from the auto fire on their first day on the job? Not the exposure to toxins from hundreds of fires over 30 years of a career?

[team karst]

Originally Posted by C420sailor

Deionized (distilled) water doesn’t conduct electricity.

Wished u hadn’t put the word distilled in the sentence. DI water is demineralized, but more pertinent to this thread; its had its H+ and OH- ions removed too. It also needs to be stored with care. DI water is not particularly stable, and there are a number of ways to make those ions again even in closed containers.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by team karst

Wished u hadn’t put the word distilled in the sentence. DI water is demineralized, but more pertinent to this thread; its had its H+ and OH- ions removed too. It also needs to be stored with care. DI water is not particularly stable, and there are a number of ways to make those ions again even in closed containers.

I studied chemistry for a number of years.


I did not study it long enough to understand how the H+ and OH- ions can be removed from water. Perhaps someone with a better understanding can enlighten me.

[MikeHoncho]

Originally Posted by Russian007

That doesn't make sense. A once in a lifetime exposure to toxic smoke is worse than weekly exposure over 30 years to the same products? So the reason firefighters have higher rates of lung cancer is just that first breath of smoke from the auto fire on their first day on the job? Not the exposure to toxins from hundreds of fires over 30 years of a career?

Absolutely it does when it kills you with that first and only dose. I’m not discounting the chronic exposure but it seemed that you may have been with the acute. I’ll take the possibility of cancer over being dead if I had a choice. GI and skin cancer tends to be the going cancer for FFs. Not inhaled but ingested and absorbed. For the record I concern myself with all exposures.......professional firefighter and hazmat tech.

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by MikeHoncho

Absolutely it does when it kills you with that first and only dose. I’m not discounting the chronic exposure but it seemed that you may have been with the acute. I’ll take the possibility of cancer over being dead if I had a choice. GI and skin cancer tends to be the going cancer for FFs. Not inhaled but ingested and absorbed. For the record I concern myself with all exposures.......professional firefighter and hazmat tech.

The word I used was "choking". Choking is not a good thing. Choking is bad. The comment was meant tongue and cheek.
For the record, I cut a few teeth in some of the busiest houses in the country. Two guys I worked with in those assignments, literally from my shift, recently passed from cancer. Not even 60 yet. On a personal level? I finish my Chemo Oct 10th. The job takes a toll. We know what we signed up for. "Absorbed and Ingested"? So the issue is sunscreen and high fiber diets to keep guys safe? There is still a lot of mystery regarding causes of cancer. Stay in your lane Jefe. You're a fire chief not an Oncology chief.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

I have a feeling that water mist systems are going to be adopted by the yachting community in the near future and are already replacing Co2 systems on commercial vessels. In the near future, container ships may even adopt a system of misting each individual TEU on deck and possibly inerting the below decks spaces. The increasing number of ships lost to container fires...... and the motivation to adopt better suppression systems, is likely to come from the insurance industry.

I like the idea of water misting systems and the devices to implement a DIY system are readily available these days from the folks who manufacture agricultural or horticultural spraying systems.

About as nasty a fire extinguishing problem as you would want to handle is oil and gas well fires. Red Adair used barrels full of dynamite to put them out but modern well fire fighters use streams of water.

When you get enough water going into the oil or gas stream blowing from the well it drops the temperature below the ignition temperature and the fire goes out. One of them told me that you have to get the water into the right spot in the column and you cannot really see where this is but you can hear it if you know what to listen for.

[boat driver]

A vessel needs to be properly equipped for THAT vessel. If a wood vessel, water. If a plastic vessel , water not the best choice, etc.
But whatever the choice, education of how to use and the limits of the equipment is paramount.
The majority of destructive fires occur because because of human errors- poor knowledge of how to use the available equipment, incorrect or inoperable equipment, poor understanding of fire development, and panic to escape before responding.
Last month the destruction of a super yacht in the UK because 1) candles to close to flammable material , inoperable fire detection equipment , and therefore inoperable suppression system.
Education and awareness will improve the safety dramatically.